Status of Women Committee on Sept. 26th, 2016

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

You have fifty seconds.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'll open it up for an open-ended suggestion, then.

If government could make the biggest change it could make to implement something new that would help reduce instances of cybercrime, is there an item that would be at the top of your list? That's for either of you.

[Shanly Dixon]

I would say that on the ground in community organizations when I talk to youth, they often think it's normal and acceptable. I think it's about just getting the word out there to denormalize cyber-violence. This is not everyday behaviour. This is not just growing up online. We have to explain to them that this is not normal. In their lives, they think extreme cyber-violence is normal behaviour.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'm sure my time is exhausted by now.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

All right. We'll take it over to my colleague, Ms. Harder.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you very much.

I'm actually going to piggyback on that question, because it was an excellent one. I would love to hear your perspective, as well, from point of view of the RCMP.

It's my understanding that it is difficult to find the people who are committing these crimes online, and I'd like to know how we can go about putting legislation in place that would actually equip and empower you to do your jobs more effectively.

[Insp Peter Payne]

I'll just say right now that we can't really have a hand in legislation. We work as well as we can with our partners. We're making great efforts in some areas, but we realize that it is becoming more difficult to track some of these perpetrators. However, we do manage to get some of them.

To go back to some of the prevention measures, Cybertip.ca has a lot of good prevention measures, including what they call “Cleanfeed”. The public reports certain websites to them that are sharing child sexual exploitation material online, and they block those sites from entering Canada.

Some of those tools and techniques are very effective, so there is some blockage, but unfortunately we can't control all of the Internet, the worldwide web. We cannot accomplish that at this point in time.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

In the interest of time, are you saying that our only hope is just to educate the public? Is there nothing that can be done legislatively? Around this table we are legislators. At the end of the day, we're looking to make changes to legislation that is going to empower you to do your job effectively.

[Insp Peter Payne]

It's not our role to make any legislation. Whatever legislation comes before us, we'll deal with appropriately.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I get that, but it's our job to work with you guys who are on the front lines, so that we're putting legislation in place that actually empowers you. Otherwise, we're just putting in place stupid legislation that's uneducated and could actually end up binding you rather than empowering you. I'm wondering if you guys are up for working with us on this.

[Insp Peter Payne]

I'm totally open to any ideas that can help us out. Anybody in law enforcement would be willing to assist, but right now, we work with the legislation we have. If I had an answer for you right now, I would give it to you. We work within the needs of the legislation and the policies and laws of the Government of Canada. I really can't give you an answer as to what I would like to see done. We work with what we have before us.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

For this question, I'm going to first point to Ms. Dixon.

With regard to the issue of cyber-violence, do you think that perhaps instead of prosecuting the perpetrators, those who are sharing intimate images of others, we could take the route of bringing about a greater normality in society as a whole by teaching young girls and women that they should be proud of their bodies and that it's okay for them to be seen, and to normalize that so that it's no longer associated with shame and guilt and condemnation? Do you think that perhaps we could take education in that direction and that it would be just as effective?

[Shanly Dixon]

Absolutely. When I talk to youth, I hear that young girls would love to see that happen. They believe that theoretically, but on the ground that's not the way their lives play out. They're torn between thinking that theoretically they should feel this way and not being able to act this way because of slut shaming, revenge porn, and all of these things.

Some of the most poignant research that came back was from talking to young girls. I was talking to a group of 15-year-old girls and they said, “You know, you have to take it down a notch. If we share an intimate photo, it shouldn't ruin our life. It shouldn't change the way you think of us forever.”

I think that is a really important aspect of it. We're all content producers now. We all make things, post things, share things, and I think it's about teaching from the very youngest of ages that the content we produce has ethical implications and creates the environment we operate in. I think we need to teach those kinds of things both from very early on. and in industry, to developers and designers. The content you create has impacts.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

In your estimation, when these crimes are committed, should they be prosecuted, or should they just be normalized in society?

[Shanly Dixon]

In my opinion, it depends. I think we need research, because we have to draw lines. We're often asking young people what they want from us, what policy they want. They're on the front lines. They're really smart, and they have a lot of knowledge.

When I go into research, I often ask, “What can we do to help you? Where do you think the lines are between policy, legislation and education?” They're very forthcoming about where they want to draw their lines. I think there are incidents in which we absolutely need to prosecute people who perpetrate cyber-violence. For sure there are lines.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I would ask the same question of the RCMP.

[Insp Kimberly Taplin]

Could you repeat the question?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

There's a field of thought that if we just simply normalize the sharing of intimate images by girls and women, then with enough education, it will no longer be seen as shameful. We could take education in that direction. My question is whether, in your estimation, that is the best way. Is that where education should be going, or should it be going in a different direction?

[Insp Kimberly Taplin]

Through the centre, through the RCMP, we reach out to our youth community and our partners to help us establish the most appropriate educational pieces in outreach. Our consultations with the youth help direct us on the material and the direction that we take with respect to education, awareness, and prevention. I'm not in a position to speak for the youth. As I said, I count heavily on their input to direct us to take the approach they would like us to take that would best meet their needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We'll go to Ms. Malcolmson for seven minutes.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you to the witnesses. Thank you for your work.

I'd like to feel out a little more, on the RCMP side, your sense of the province-to-province situation for victims who are within a municipal or a rural policing situation. Can victims of cyber-violence expect equivalent access to justice or a consistent police response regardless of where they live in the country?

[Insp Kimberly Taplin]

The answer to that would be yes. The RCMP provides access to all Canadians equally. We also connect citizens to places such as Cybertip.ca. In that way, they have access through the RCMP, certainly, no matter where they are in Canada. I can't speak for other police forces, but I can speak for the RCMP.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

The RCMP only services within a certain area, so do you have any bridging programs or ways to... ? I guess you're saying you're not sure about outside the RCMP. So people who are receiving police services from a municipal force or from a provincial police force might not have the same access to programs they would have if the RCMP serviced them.

[Insp Kimberly Taplin]

Today I came prepared to speak only on behalf of the RCMP.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Okay. It does sound as though anybody on the front line can get access to your central pool of resources through the program you have in place. A particularly proactive officer in any force anywhere in the country would be able to access the resources and the expertise you've developed.