Status of Women Committee on Sept. 26th, 2016

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

It's kind of the opposite of victim shaming, isn't it? You're really bringing this story out there.

[Carol Todd]

I think so.

Some people actually go after Leah and me and say we're only doing this for fame. I would give this all up in a heartbeat. On my plane ride here, I was in tears. I really shouldn't have to be on that plane to come and sit in front of this committee and talk about my daughter and the story that is presented. It was so emotional for me to do this. But I will do this, and I will stand. As I said, if it's going to help, then I'll be there.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I think I speak for all the members of the committee when I say that we as legislators now have a shared responsibility. We have invited you to tell your story. We have heard your story, and we are with you in solidarity about finding solutions. It is not only the parents' responsibility.

In closing, if either of you has any advice for us on the issue of equal access to justice regardless of where you live in the country—whether it is about the education system, the policing, or the conviction system—I would be really happy to hear your advice.

[Carol Todd]

I think we have different silos. I have always said that we work in three different silos. We work on prevention, intervention, and reaction. Many times, when it comes to law enforcement, that is the reactionary side. We, as Canadians, educators, parents, and communities, need to work on the prevention side so that we don't have to have criminalization of individuals, whether young or old, because of behavioural acts. We really need to focus on what information we are going to get out there to our communities in order to prevent stories—information on how to treat people, how to treat young girls, how to treat women, and how to treat boys, because we are focusing just on females, but this happens in the male sector, too. It is all about the behaviours and the mindset of what is going on out there.

There are big questions. If we write down all the questions, we can work on coming up with the answers, but without those questions, there are myriad things out there, and they just keep moving super fast, at lightspeed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

All right. We will move to Mrs. Nassif, for seven minutes.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, I would like to share my time with Mr. Fraser, if I have time left.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Okay.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Ms. Parsons and Ms. Todd, I would like to thank you, not as a parliamentarian but as a mother of triplets. I was always worried, when my kids were teenagers, about how to protect them and what to do. I wasn't sleeping at night, not knowing if I was doing the right thing or the wrong thing. Thank God, now they are good students and good kids.

I would like to thank you for appearing before our committee today to share your true stories in order to help prevent other tragedies from happening here in Canada and across the world. Thank you for being here.

Considering the context of the cases of Amanda and Rehtaeh, do you feel that your needs were sufficiently met by the police and the community? If not, what was missing from the equation? What difficulties did you face throughout the process that you felt were just roadblocks or inadequacies that needed to be overcome, and what would your suggestions be?

[Leah Parsons]

My background is in psychology, so I felt I was equipped to try to find my way through the waters to get her help. I was so wrong. There are many silos, and they don't talk to each other. Not only did Rehtaeh have to tell her story constantly everywhere we went but we didn't get support. Instead of someone coming forward and saying, “this family has suffered a trauma. We need to support her” and saying “here are the police, the counsellors, victim services, and everyone we need to place around this family”, none of that happened. I was left calling and saying, “I don't understand. Why is the photo still being shared? Why aren't you questioning the boys?” There were so many questions.

When your child is traumatized, the whole family is traumatized. I was thinking, “We can get through this. I know how to navigate these systems”, but I had no clue. I think of myself and think that I have the wherewithal to do that, and then I think of all the other families who don't even come up to the state where they think they know what they can do. As soon as they hit the first door, what do they do? It was horrible.

They did an investigation and then, one year later, they told her they were doing nothing and that the photo was still being shared. To me, the first step when you report is to have a team surround you. That is necessary, regardless of whether charges are laid. You need to have that support system come around you and say, “We are going to help you. This is what happens next. This is what you are going to do” instead of you coming up against police officers who dismiss you and tell you, “I have other cases. You are not my only case. This was just teenagers, and there was alcohol.” That is what I see as a huge hurdle, and that is the first step.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Ms. Todd, go ahead, please.

[Carol Todd]

When we told our personal story to the law enforcement agency, I too initially felt that we were dismissed. The week after the image was reported and we went in to talk to the RCMP, we were made to feel that they were looking at Amanda as a dysfunctional child who had issues of her own.

You know what? She wasn't the best behaved. She was nervous, so she laughed at inappropriate times, and I think the judgment was made then that this child could be problematic and it was her fault. That wasn't the case. I think now, with the tragic ending, everyone is looking at the story and saying, “Oh, we should have done this; we could have done this.”

The week after, I got a message through my social media network from a person who allegedly knew all about Amanda. I reported it to the police, and the answer to me was to just ignore it, delete it, block it. Then, I found out three years later that the profile name was one of this person's aliases. As a mother, I feel that I should have pursued it. I should have done more. I could have become that vigilante mother, and I should have, because it meant my daughter's life or death.

As for the RCMP, the law enforcement agencies, and their behaviours, they need more training in empathy. They need more training in how to deal with young people when they come to a house. There was an instance where Amanda overdosed on pills because of the circumstances in her life. There were two police officers in my house, and I felt that I was watching a good cop and a bad cop, because the one cop pulled her down from the room and asked her why she wanted to kill herself. Was she stupid? What was she thinking? I said to the other police officer, “Why is he doing this?” That officer said, “Well, that's the way he runs, and that's what he does.” No one asked me whether my daughter had previously been diagnosed with PTSD. That was the last time she would talk to a police officer.

They need more training and more empathy. That's the part that I remember and that just sticks in my head. Maybe I should have stepped in. Maybe I should have said something different. I can't change the past right now, but I can certainly help to change the future.

[Eva Nassif, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

For individuals who have been involved in such serious scenarios, are there sufficient resources available for victims of these crimes who continue to be victimized after the original crime has occurred?

[Carol Todd]

No. No, there aren't enough resources. There isn't enough compensation. There aren't enough supports out there for people who have been victimized, not only through cyber-violence but also through sexual assaults and with rape. The story goes on and on, and we're not just talking about young girls. You can be traumatized for years. It could come out 10 years later, but where is that person going to go for help when someone says that it happened 10 years ago and they should have gotten over it by now? We have to really think about what's in place in the structure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We're going to go to our second round now, with Ms. Harder for five minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

First and foremost, along with all of my colleagues, let me thank you for your courage. It's certainly a pleasure to have you here today. When we took on this study, it was with a lot of personal passion, and you were certainly two of the witnesses who were top of mind for me and who I wanted to hear from. Thank you.

I am very interested in having you two expand on some of the legislative changes that you might see needing to be made. You've alluded to a number of them. The fact that you went to the RCMP and were more or less shrugged off really concerns me. I'm wondering how we define that identifiable path, if you will. In other words, a mom comes in and has some concerns, so what is that identifiable path for every single RCMP or police agency across the country? What does that protocol look like? That's really what I would love us to define, so that we could put forward a really great concrete strategy from this committee moving forward.

That's what I'm looking to you for. Clearly, you've gone through this. You have first-hand experience, and you might be able to help me out. From the time a mother walks into a police agency or a police office and has a conversation, what does that process need to look like? Also, what are the legislative pieces that need to be in place in order to empower her?

[Leah Parsons]

Depending on the police officer who they report to, the response is going to be different, so there's the problem right there: it depends on the police officer. Each police officer, if you're going to deal with, for example, an intimate image, is going to have to have some training in how to respond to that. Their personal opinions come into it. It's not just a matter of them saying “this is our policy and procedure.” They will actually say, “why were you sharing those intimate images?” The type of language and the way they're received is very important right at the front end, because that's going to determine right there how seriously they're going to take that complaint. Then, again, they need to be aware that there is a law that you're not allowed to share intimate images without permission. Everyone has to be aware of that law if they're going to be dealing with those types of crimes.

If you get past those first two steps and you're successful, I think then it's a matter of having the police go into the schools, because a lot of children I speak to across Canada think it's just in Nova Scotia that it's against the law. I have to explain to them that, no, this is the Criminal Code of Canada, and you are not allowed.... Then all their faces drop. So there's the education piece in the schools to let them really be aware that this is really serious and there will be consequences for their behaviour.

To me, those are the first few steps and those are the first roadblocks that you come across. I have had parents say “the police officer was great and they knew the law and they applied it, and then they made sure that the image was removed immediately.” But you could have the complete opposite of that.

[Carol Todd]

I would certainly agree with what Leah is saying, that in every province and every jurisdiction it is different. If you go to cybercrime teams and ICE teams, they of course have more information on how to handle certain cases than on how to handle others. We can't deflect any cases that come through. I had a mom contact me just last week who said she talked to Cybertip.ca and there's an image of her daughter, but Cybertip.ca told her there was nothing more they could do because the image was posted on an American site.

There's Canada and there's the U.S., and we know that the U.S. is far bigger and greater and vast, but just because it's an American site doesn't mean that as Canadians we have to stop there, just because it's across the border. That's why Amanda's story is so interesting to hear, because this fellow is across the water. When we talk about legislation and we talk about what we need to do, we're not bound by the waters around Canada anymore. This is the Internet. This is the technology. It brings people to our faces in a minute who are across the world, so we need to talk about that. We have to make legislation meet the fast-growing pace of technology and what's happening around the world that people are facing right now.

In terms of law enforcement, RCMP, it's learning about what technology is doing. It's learning about how to dialogue, how to have those questions, but they're also learning not to be so black and white so that the person who is reporting it feels that they're not valued.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

That's your time.

We're going to go to Ms. Damoff for five minutes.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you both for being here. I understand one of your daughter's memory stones has just made it to Oakville, Leah, and I'm so happy to know that her memory will be part of the culture in my community from now on. I think that's a wonderful initiative, and I'm deeply touched that she will be part of our community forever.

One of you brought up something about cellphones, and it just triggered something with me. We as the federal government actually regulate the cellphone industry, and so much of what we've talked about is out of the purview of what we as the federal government can actually legislate. Do you see any changes that we should be making to cellphone regulations in terms of dealing with cyber-violence and what we're talking about?

[Carol Todd]

There are a few cellphone providers in our country. Each one of them seems to have a different platform. One has mental health. Another one has e-health and social media safety. They all need to be working on the same page and the same issue, because they all distribute the same tool.

One in particular that I sit on an advisory board for is doing a really good job in getting information out to families, seniors, and school-age children about smart social media safety. I applaud them for that, because they are the first ones that have branched out. In the United States, it's more vast. They have a bigger population and they're working really well on getting it out digitally also.

We need to try to figure out a way to get information out there to the parents so the parents can provide it to the kids.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Do you have anything to add to that?

[Leah Parsons]

No, I don't.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'd actually like to share my time with Mr. Fraser.

Do you have some questions, Sean?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Sure. Thanks again very much for coming and sharing your story. Being from Nova Scotia, I'm very familiar with Rehtaeh's case, as well as the incident you mentioned, which was in my community, of the non-consensual sharing just a few weeks ago, and the experience at Saint Mary's and Dalhousie. There's been a bit of an epidemic in Nova Scotia with the mistreatment of women online and in real life, so to speak.

I have very limited time, so I'll focus on just one issue. You both mentioned the need to tell girls that they are enough, that they should love themselves, and that we should also bring boys into the conversation. It sounds to me as though there might be a need for a bit of a public conversation or an awareness campaign. Could you comment briefly on what such a campaign would entail if it were going to help inspire confidence in young women and girls and awareness in young men and boys?

[Carol Todd]

I think that nothing is ever enough, but there are campaigns out there by different organizations and companies that focus on girls. We don't talk enough to our boys about how they need to respect females and how they need to behave to be “proper gentlemen”. We need to focus on having our boys listen to that message more and not be that tough guy who can stand up to anything. That's something I would like to see a focus on.