Evidence of meeting #27 for Status of Women in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was students.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Daphne Gilbert  Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Elizabeth Sheehy  Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Danika McConnell  Representative, Canadian Alliance of Student Associations
Bilan Arte  National Chairperson, Canadian Federation of Students
Alexander Wayne MacKay  Professor of Law, Schulich School of Law, Dalhousie University, As an Individual
Nicolette Little  Professor, Sheridan College, Ph.D. Candidate, gender and media studies, York University, As an Individual
Lori Chambers  Professor, Lakehead University, As an Individual

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

We've heard a lot about universities looking to protect their own reputations. You mentioned there's an external, independent investigator. How important is that and how prevalent is it? Is this the only university that has come up with that idea, or is it something that's fairly common?

4:20 p.m.

Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Daphne Gilbert

As far as I know, we're the only university in Canada that mandates that an external investigator be required. We felt it was important, not so much because of accountability for the university, but mainly because we are taking away due process protections of face-to-face meetings and the ability to question witnesses and those sorts of things. We thought it was particularly important for those accused of sexual assault to have the comfort of an external investigation. People right now are talking a lot about sexual violence, and universities are taking a tough stand on it. We wanted to reassure those who are accused that they would also get a fair shake, that they weren't going to be judged by an internal university process.

The students came to us and said that they didn't trust the universities, and this was also part of how we sold it, in terms of resource implications, to our university. We said that until you build a climate of trust, this is the way to do it. This is the way you will get students to come forward, because you're not taking it on yourself and they don't trust us yet.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Anita Vandenbeld Liberal Ottawa West—Nepean, ON

Thank you very much.

I'm sharing my time with Ms. Fry.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Hedy Fry Liberal Vancouver Centre, BC

Thank you.

This is a difficult issue for many reasons, because in society it is a difficult issue, so I can understand some of the things you face. You mentioned the United States and the disincentives, the penalties, that are put in place by the federal government. The federal government in the United States, however, is responsible for education and here we're not. There's this constitutional thing that prevents us from doing it.

There are tools that we can use, and you are right that one of them is the federal government. The only problem is that the transfer of the PSE is a bulk transfer, so how you use that as a club is going to be very difficult. I wanted to ask if you have thought about how it can be used in the Canadian context, because that's a very important piece.

We're talking about how we penalize, but I liked your idea of an independent person, where there is a confidential safe place for people to report and for people to be accused. This way, both the “perpetrator” and the victim can go and have this safe, confidential hearing by a person who knows what they're doing and who has an expertise. There is a feeling there isn't anything like this, that nobody wants to go to the university and the university is using blackmail tactics. You go and the next thing is that you can't get in the next year or you feel the faculty might turn against you. I like that idea of an independent person. I think it's a very elegant way of dealing with the problem.

Those are important pieces you bring up, and I think it's worthwhile for the committee—I'm not a member of the committee—to think about with respect to recommendations. This is something Australia has done very well, because this culture is pervasive in society. There's what Donald Trump said and everybody saying it was just locker-room talk. The acceptance that this is locker-room talk is just not right. The federal government has a real role to play in doing public service announcements, doing public education. In Australia, they succeeded very well by having national athletes, Olympians, whom students, including male students, really admire, who are supposed to be “the jocks”. When they speak out and talk about violence and sexual violence, it has made a real impact in what has happened in Australian society, never mind in universities where people can see each other.

I think there's a role in public education that the federal government can play without crossing any jurisdictional boundaries.

Finally, I want to ask a question about prevention. This is very important. How do we change the culture? How do we help young girls who have come from immigrant families, first generation? Their parents don't want to talk about this. This discussion is a no-no. How do we prepare them? Is there a role for the high school, cultural organizations, or NGOs to play in helping young people to be ready for going to university, where they're really thrown into the deep end and their parents don't want to discuss it? Is there a role for NGOs in this?

I know we did this when I was minister of status of women. We did it with churches and we did it with NGOs in order to break through the cultural no-no attitude towards talking about anything, the denial phase.

I wondered if you saw any way of doing that.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

You have nine seconds.

4:25 p.m.

Associate Professor, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual

Daphne Gilbert

In terms of public service announcements, one of the best campaigns I have ever seen is the campaign by President Obama and Vice-President Biden. They have a website with these snappy little messages. They have famous athletes and movie stars all talking about sexual assault on campus. It's fantastic.

That's a place to look as far as leadership goes.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Very good. Excellent.

I'm so sorry we're at the end of our time, because this was exceptional. If there are additional comments you want to make to the committee, or things you want to send through the clerk, we'd be very happy to receive them.

I want to thank all of our witnesses for being with us.

We'll suspend for two minutes while we switch panels. I know that the witnesses who are with us today would love to get a picture with the committee, so perhaps the committee members would head down that way.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Let's begin, everyone.

For this panel discussion, we're very pleased to have with us Alexander Wayne MacKay, a professor of law at Dalhousie University.

Nicolette Little will be joining us shortly. She is a professor from Sheridan College in gender and media studies.

Then we'll have Lori Chambers with us from Lakehead University.

We'll start off with you, Mr. MacKay. You have 10 minutes for your comments.

4:25 p.m.

Alexander Wayne MacKay Professor of Law, Schulich School of Law, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Great. First of all, I have a little handout. Perhaps I could get somebody to pass that around.

4:25 p.m.

A voice

To pass it around, it has to be bilingual.

4:25 p.m.

Professor of Law, Schulich School of Law, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

If you get it to the clerk, she'll make sure it gets distributed.

4:25 p.m.

Professor of Law, Schulich School of Law, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Alexander Wayne MacKay

That's fine.

Well, the main thing—actually, I guess the cartoons are in French and English—is that somebody referred to Donald Trump. As a native Nova Scotian, I have to sing the praises of Mr. MacKinnon. What a great cartoonist he is. When you do get this, it says “make America 'ape' again” in terms of the Donald Trump effect. With it is an article about the impact that kind of thing has on issues around sexual assault on university campuses. I sat in on some of your previous witnesses' testimony on the whole question of culture, rape culture, and those kinds of things. It's part of that.

Maybe I should very quickly tell you a little bit about my involvement in this issue. I'm primarily a constitutional law and human rights law teacher. That's what I've done for most of my career. In recent times, however, I did chair the Nova Scotia task force on cyber-bullying and did a report on that. That got me immersed in that difficult and complicated area. It has sort of taken over my life, along with this one, even though I did a lot of things before that. Also, I did chair the Saint Mary's so-called rape chant council and advised the president and the university on that. That has partly, other than my legal training, gotten me involved in issues around sexual assault.

These are huge areas. I assume, based on your questions, you'd prefer more of a focus, if not an exclusive focus, on sexual assault, although the earlier part of the committee did deal with questions of cyber-bullying. One of the important points, I think, is that there is a continuum, as I'm sure this committee would recognize, of violence against women all the way from sexual harassment to sexting to sexual assault. It's a continuum, not a single entry point.

I did have translated, and I hope the committee has available, three items that I want to comment on very briefly. One is a PowerPoint presentation I did for the International Society for the Reform of Criminal Law dealing with the Ghomeshi trial and issues around sexual assault. Another one was for that same organization on so-called revenge porn. Perhaps most relevant for this, in some ways, is the third document, which deals with the issue of what kinds of things should go into policies dealing with issues of sexual assault on university campuses. It's the Association of Atlantic Universities presentation that my excellent research student Maxime pulled together and that we both worked on and presented.

Those are the three pieces. I recognize that time is very short, so I'll make a very few comments on that and try to be responsive to your questions.

First, for those who like to refer to things, I'll refer to the Ghomeshi document and the PowerPoint on that, it certainly brought to light the difficulties victims face in dealing with our criminal system. We knew that before, but it certainly played out on a very large and significant stage.

One part of the presentation, which I won't review but you can look at later, goes back and actually looks at the evolution of the Criminal Code. It's quite interesting to see that from the 1890s the punishment for rape—not to say that this is the answer—was either life imprisonment or death, and even attempted rape was a seven-year sentence. They added to that in the 1920s by adding whipping to both categories. Again, I'm not advocating that we need to bring that back, but it's an interesting contrast to the kinds of penalties handed out today in relation to issues of sexual assault. That's one part of that evolution.

Another part that certainly the Ghomeshi trial and other things have brought out is that the change in 1982, a very important reform of the sexual assault laws—from talking about rape as penetration, a much narrower definition, to a much broader range of things in terms of sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, and those kinds of things—was mostly positive, obviously. It included husbands for the first time. It's pretty amazing when you think about that, but it is true. It's only since 1982.

On the other side of that, as the Ghomeshi trial brought out, and maybe this goes to the “just locker-room talk” kind of thing, “sexual assault” doesn't seem to have the gravitas that “rape” does as a term. As a society it's been kind of normalized in some way, so there has emerged a bit of a downside to that. Again, that's not to suggest that it has to be redefined.

That's mostly what I would say on it, but the only other thing that I'd comment on quickly is in terms of looking at the role of law in all of this, which I guess is quite important. What is the role of law and policy in these things? Education and prevention obviously are extremely important, and in some ways more important than law, but as I point out in both of those presentations, I think the law has an important moral message to send in terms of stating what our core values are, what the values should be in terms of how seriously we take things like sexual assault and sexual assault on university campuses, and how we respond to that. I think that's quite important.

Also, we shouldn't just think about—and this will lead me a little bit into the university context—the criminal response. Having worked with various universities.... Actually, one other hat I wore was as president of Mount Allison for a term as well, so I've been on the other side of the desk on these kinds of things. I think one of the important issues is that you do not simply refer it to police. Obviously you should do that in the appropriate cases—which is a lot of the cases—but that does not absolve you as an institution of all responsibility to respond.

In my work in this area, I find that's a very frequent answer: “We've done what we're supposed to do. We're not qualified to do this; we've sent it to the police, and that's it.” I think one really important thing that might come from this committee is reinforcing that there still should be discipline processes and internal university processes to respond simultaneously, perhaps, with a criminal investigation, because of many of the shortcomings in the Ghomeshi example, and because it takes a long time.

On the revenge porn point, I wouldn't say much about that other than to say there is an important continuum on campus between other forms of sexual violence against women. There's a bit of a dilemma. One of the moves is to say that universities should have stand-alone sexual assault policies, and I think that's true. You do need stand-alone sexual assault policies, given how important it is and how those have to be done, but it doesn't mean that you shouldn't pay a lot of attention to the other forms of sexualized violence.

In my immersion in issues of cyber-bullying and these kinds of things, the world of the Net is particularly difficult for women. Women have this fine line between what they call the slut/prude dichotomy. Jane Bailey and others have talked about that. You have to be sufficiently sexual to not be a prude or to not be seen by your friends as a prude, but if you go over the line, then you're a slut and all that.

In terms of a huge amount of the cyber-bullying, which does happen at universities and has received very little attention in terms of the sexualized and other forms of cyber-bullying at universities, you don't necessarily see very much of it that is not sexualized in relation to women, which is partly a human rights component. Think about high-profile cases like those of Rehtaeh Parsons, from my province, or Amanda Todd, on the other coast, both of them, of course, with a significant sexual violence: sexual alleged rape in the case of Rehtaeh Parsons and sexualized cyber-bullying in the case of Amanda Todd. They're very typical.

I think that one of the other areas to think about with universities is, do they have policies? Are they doing some kind of surveys or analysis to try to find out whether or not this is a problem on their campuses? As I say, not necessarily in the same policy as sexual assaults, but it's something else to be addressed in a big way. Revenge porn or non-consensual distribution of intimate images is definitely an issue that's around on campuses. One of the statistics in that particular one is that something like 60% of children between the ages of 9 and 12 engage in sexting, which is pretty phenomenal.

Anyway, that's it. In the little bit of time left, although I think it's pretty clear, most recently I've worked with the Association of Atlantic Universities a bit on trying to develop some policies dealing with issues of sexual assault on campus. What we attempted to do in the first round was identify some key issues. They are set out in the document, which I understand you have as well.

We went through the methodology there, the first one being definitions. It's obviously critical to have common definitions about what is a sexual assault. If we're going to start, as we should, counting sexual assault, like the United States, then universities are very concerned that they count the same thing. That's not the case at the moment, and that's a very difficult question. That's one.

Accessibility of the policies is critical. You have to be able to get at them and understand them in a difficult time. Also, you need to have a process that's fair to and balanced for the alleged perpetrator and the victim. You need a culture of change, and I've cited some documents at the end of this.

I know that I'm just about out of time—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

I'm very sorry, but you're out of time.

4:40 p.m.

Professor of Law, Schulich School of Law, Dalhousie University, As an Individual

Alexander Wayne MacKay

That's pretty well—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Don't worry, we'll catch it on the questions.

We're going to go to Nicolette Little, who is a professor at Sheridan College, and a Ph.D. candidate in gender and media studies. You'll have 10 minutes as well.

October 19th, 2016 / 4:40 p.m.

Nicolette Little Professor, Sheridan College, Ph.D. Candidate, gender and media studies, York University, As an Individual

Thank you very much. I've also worked in anti-assault advocacy with women's shelters in my area.

It's good to be here with you today. In speaking with MP Damoff before I came here, she mentioned that you've heard a lot about rape-related problems, and that you might want to hear about some potential solutions. I've focused my talk a little more on some ideas that I've had from my various roles, in terms of contributing to solutions to ending campus rape.

Campus rape is obviously a major issue, but its roots aren't planted during frosh week. The roots are laid before and are the byproducts of a society that continues to tell men that they're at their best when they're tough and in control, that pervasively presents images of women as sex objects across media and in widely accessible porn, and also in the way daddy treats mommy, so to speak, at the dinner table.

The implantation of these ideas happens from a very early time, when our children are born, and unless we disrupt the sexist attitudes to which they're exposed during their formative years, we're effectively trying to fix what has long been broken anyway, by the time they're college age.

We desperately need our girls to know that they're worth a lot, but I would like to speak a bit more about our boys right now. Often the perpetrators of violence against women and girls need training about respecting women in a way that touches them at their core.

I recently organized an event at Sheridan College called “For Her We Speak”. This event featured Leah Parsons, whom I know you all know and have spoken to. She came and spoke to our students, staff, and community members. As Leah spoke about Rehtaeh's alleged rape and the eventually life-ending consequences of this assault for Rehtaeh, audience members were spellbound, quite literally. They told me after that they would never forget the talk. Parents said they would go home and speak with their boys, not just once but in an ongoing way, to make sure that they learned how to respect women and girls. Students also committed to protecting each other, and protecting girls.

Leah's talk was important because of the humanness of its narrative. Our boys need to hear from real victims, I feel, those who feel able to speak about their experiences, about what it's like to be raped and to navigate the physical, emotional, and legal aftermath, or they need to hear from people like Leah, who can talk about what it's like to lose someone due to the aftermath of alleged sexual assaults.

Rape isn't an event that starts and ends for the victim at the time of occurrence. It revisits the victim in PTSD, challenged relationships, and an ongoing plethora of mental and other issues, as we know. While statistics, informational talks, and theories can provide a backdrop to boys' learning, I feel that we really need a note of human narrative to breathe vivid life into these discussions about actions and consequences that are related.

While such talks are important for boys in their formative years, campus students are also really impacted by such real world dialogues. That was seen at the “For Her We Speak” event recently in Oakville, Ontario. I recommend developing a program that connects the many willing victims to schools and post-secondary institutions. Survivors should unquestionably be remunerated for their brave harnessing of tough experiences to improve youth. Counsellors at schools should be on hand, if anyone is triggered.

There is of course another benefit to having victims speak about their experiences. For many victims, sharing their story and making a difference is a critical part of the healing process itself.

In relation to what I've just been speaking about, and a narrative's impact on students, I've been conducting research concerning the Nova Scotian beach stones that have been collected, painted, and then replaced around the community by Leah Parsons. She also mails these painted stones around the world and around Canada for people who have heard about them and want to place them in their own communities.

While the stones were initially meant to memorialize Rehtaeh, I look at them for the anti-rape advocacy functions they have come to play. Written on the stones, for example, is “end the silence” or “raise awareness”. Leah soon began planting a note under these stones that told people about Rehtaeh's story, that urged them to reconsider their deepest held beliefs about women and girls, and that also urged people to replant the note with the stone for other people to find in a bit of a chain reaction that's had quite an impact across Canada and the world.

The research is showing that the stones are really impacting people and their attitudes across Canada and globally. They have a major impact on college students and staff as well. I've interviewed Leah, people who have engaged with the stones or found a stone around the world, and healing professionals who are using the stones to help facilitate healing in others.

Everyone—post-secondary students, instructors, counsellors, entire football teams, parents, and police officers, among others—reports that engaging with the stones has helped them or the youth with whom they work to understand what rape culture is, the need to respect girls, and the need to treat victims of violence with care. Obviously, that's really important.

My research not only explores the impact of these stones but also how we can harness them as facilitation tools, as part of a new youth- and student-targeted program for raising awareness about sexual assault and its consequences, what we can do to stop it from happening, and how to treat victims with care. I would be happy to discuss this further if the findings interest you, and you think they can be of use.

I've spoken about the need to target youth to reduce instances of later campus rape. I would also like to talk about the sensitivity of some of the people to whom students report, and that would be police and professors.

The way police officers respond to a campus assault has come a long way. At Sheridan College, we hear mostly positive experiences from students, but some police really do ask, “What were you wearing?” or a personal favourite, “What kind of dance class were you doing beforehand?” The words really slaughter the girls who hear them. An attitude of non-judgment and a belief in the equality of the sexes, both of which are needed for appropriate and supportive responses to sexual assault, still contradict some of the earliest socialization of many of our well-meaning officers.

I don't have time to talk about all the ideas I have, because I know there are limitations on time, but I'll mention one. Why not ensure that all future police officers take an introductory course in women and gender studies?

I currently assist an introduction to gender and women's studies course at York University, and in just four weeks, students have gotten a strong grasp of sexual, racial, gender, ethnic, age, and ability-related forms of discrimination, to name a few, that underlay our society's institutions and power structures. They also got a sense of how deeply rooted and hard to see discrimination can be. Importantly, these courses explore these stereotypes and great myths that still pervade society. It's essential that the people who we want to uphold justice have a firm grasp of what equality and discrimination really look like.

What is great about this idea is that the infrastructure is already in place. Almost every Canadian university and many colleges now have a solid introduction to gender and women's studies course. I think it's really important to make sure that our police recruits enrol in one of these pre-existing excellent courses offered by our nation's academic institutions. I also think that the institutions won't mind the added enrolment.

In addition to police, other people in college settings can benefit from sensitivity training, and those are professors. Students often form a bond of trust and have a lot of respect for their professors. Yet a lot of students report that professors are among the least sensitive when they've gone to report at my college, which makes me very sad to hear. I've had a number of students disclose to me and my colleagues, and I've also heard from our sexual assault task force at Sheridan College that many of the people who are directed to them are directed there by professors, so they've disclosed first to professors.

On an ideal campus, all new hires would be trained to properly handle student disclosures and to direct victims to appropriate on- and off-campus supports. Professors should have a list of these supports at hand and be aware of the university's centralized resources information bank. A lot of professors do not know where to look in the university's digital infrastructure for this information, and that needs to be remedied.

Also, on an ideal campus, all faculty would take the Mental Health Commission of Canada's mental health first aid course. I've taken it, and it's great for helping you understand how to manage student distress and disclosures in an appropriate way, and direct those students as quickly as possible to the supports they need on and off campus.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

I'm sorry, that's your time.

4:50 p.m.

Professor, Sheridan College, Ph.D. Candidate, gender and media studies, York University, As an Individual

Nicolette Little

That's no problem.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Now we're going to go to Lori Chambers, who's a professor at Lakehead University.

Welcome. You will have 10 minutes as well.

4:50 p.m.

Dr. Lori Chambers Professor, Lakehead University, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

I'll introduce myself. I research violence against women, so that's my area of expertise, but I also chaired our sexual assault task force, which was called together in 2013, before much of the publicity had come out on this topic across the country. We ended up developing a policy that was passed by our board of governors in June 2014. I'm going to speak a little about the key concepts in that policy.

It's currently being revised again because it's an ongoing process, but the key tenets, as we saw, were a statement about zero tolerance and universality, because a number of institutions started talking about policy and saying it would only apply to students and, as far as we were concerned, that would have sent precisely the wrong message. The problem with sexual violence extends far beyond university campuses. It finds expression there, but the problems are much wider. Any policies must be universal. We can't target particular populations.

We also need to improve care, compassion, and accommodation, the treatment of people who've experienced sexual violence, something that Nicolette talked about quite eloquently. Part of what we did with our task force was to develop a series of materials for educating faculty members and staff who have to respond as front-line individuals when people disclose. We also wanted to build in policies that would hold offenders accountable and, at the same time, ensure due process.

Ultimately, the most important thing we're trying to do is not to punish those who have perpetrated, but to eliminate the problem at its root. That is much more difficult than simply setting policy. Policy is exceptionally important because if we don't say zero tolerance, people think we tolerate. The universities and colleges, in particular, are important places for us to have stand-alone policies, because this is where our young people, our leaders of the future, are developing their ideas about how the world should work, and we need to say very clearly, respect for one another is a key part of how we envision our nation working.

Ontario has now said that all universities and all colleges must have stand-alone policies. We should be doing that right across the country; it shouldn't be restricted to Ontario.

To me, there's a broader picture. What is the role of the university as an institution in eliminating violence against women? I think we have a particular role, not simply in policy. Our policy measures could be enhanced through federal challenges to the provinces to all create stand-alone policies, but our role is greater than simply policy, because the role of the university is as a leader in itself. This is a place that we look to for research and education, and our focus at the university and college level should be on educating our next generation about respect within our communities.

How do we do this? We need campaigns to educate bystanders, to talk about responsibility, so people understand the impact of sexual violence. Most people do not understand how harmful sexual violence is. If they understood, they wouldn't joke about it, and we still have pervasive rape jokes in our society. If people understood, they wouldn't talk that way. How do we create programs that will be accessible to all and that will be required of all going through the university and college system?

I would strongly agree with Nicolette that a broadly required course in social justice would be a wonderful thing to have a mandate for right across the country, because these should be our national values. Don't we want respect and tolerance? It goes beyond the issue of gender. It's not just women and girls who can be targeted. We need to look at transgender communities and vulnerable peoples across the board. We need to think about the fact that the most extreme expression of this right now is finding its form in missing and murdered indigenous women.

We need to understand those intersections, and we need to talk about them. We need to talk about every one of our citizens as equally valuable, whatever they are doing, and how they are living.

If we don't have those conversations at the university level, our leaders won't have them and we will not change our society. We need to have mandatory social justice training at the university and college level. We need to have mandatory training for our faculty and staff at the universities and colleges in the interim, because if they don't understand it, they can't teach it.

We need to put a lot more money into research about violence against women, violence against children, and violence against other vulnerable populations. If we're not researching it, we don't understand why it happens. The most important twin roles of universities are education and research. We have cut back on research at the federal level. The cutbacks have been extreme in the last few decades, therefore not allowing for the kind of critical thinking about the role of policy in making social change that is necessary.

We need greater funding to target areas in which we want social change and to target research to find solutions so we can make those changes now and not 40 years from now. I believe it can be done; I really do. I think Nicolette got to the heart of this as well when she said that when people hear a real life story, they understand the harm in what is done when people experience sexual violence. I'm talking about the whole range of sexual violence from sexist comments to rape or even rape and murder or rape resulting in someone committing suicide as in the case of Rehtaeh Parsons.

The whole range is harmful, but the wider society fundamentally does not understand that. You very clearly saw a lack of understanding of that in the commentary in the newspaper about the Jian Ghomeshi case. People thought it was funny. It is not funny. These women had been seriously harmed. We have to get to the heart of a society that says we can laugh about this stuff, that we can joke about it, that we can minimize the harm that's been done to people.

Putting a human face on research and education is really key and critical, but it's going to be pretty difficult to do any of that if there isn't the budget for it. Universities are already strapped: our buildings are falling apart. Unless there's real investment in making change, it's going to be really self-limiting.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Marilyn Gladu

Excellent. Thank you.

We're going to begin our rounds of questioning. We're going to start with my colleague Mr. Fraser for seven minutes.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Thank you very much to each of you for your expertise.

I completely agree, Ms. Chambers. I think we can do this. I think we have to try.

There were a lot of good ideas in the testimony about what we as a society should do. If we can try to shift the discussion to what we as a committee can recommend to the government to enact all of these great, positive steps, that would be very helpful.

Ms. Little, you mentioned things like programming, training police officers, educating boys, educating university professors who hear the complaints almost as first responders. How can we as the federal government or this committee recommend to the federal government the kind of programming that could be implemented?

5 p.m.

Professor, Sheridan College, Ph.D. Candidate, gender and media studies, York University, As an Individual

Nicolette Little

I think it would be good to mention, first of all, the personal stories being brought forward.

Sorry—you are looking for me to recommend how you could bring this to the government, right?

5 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

How can the government enhance the training of police officers? How can the government enhance the message? How can we get that message to the young boys who might become perpetrators or might not become intervenors?

I completely agree that this should happen. It's a question of mechanism. Should we be writing letters to Universities Canada as we heard from our last panel? Should we be introducing legislation? Should we be funding community organizations that are doing this work on the ground? What are the mechanisms to bring about this social change from the government's perspective?