Status of Women Committee on Oct. 27th, 2020

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Okay, I'll go back to Julie.

Julie, the task force that we talked about was clear in their recommendations for marginalized women and girls. I'm quoting it:

The Task Force believes that marginalized women are best served when selling sex is decriminalized, while sex buyers are held accountable. However, our support for this model is conditional upon a significant public investment in gender equity.

Unless Canadians support the intention behind the law, illegal acts could simply be driven underground. Our governments, supported by civil society organizations, must commit to gender equity, education at every level, and to Canada-wide public awareness initiatives.

You spoke earlier about the education material out there from your organization. Does the centre have a strategy for educating men and boys on the harm of buying sex, and the importance of gender equity? What does that look like in your educational material?

[Julia Drydyk]

That is not something we're currently prioritizing in our general education material. When looking at other jurisdictions that have attempted to either completely criminalize or decriminalize sex work, the jury is not out in terms of what models work. In some areas it has created additional safety for some sex workers, whereas others are pushed further underground. Amsterdam is a good example of this. In the regulated areas we found there were enhanced rights for sex workers, but then outside of those regulated areas we saw an increase in exploitation and in trafficking.

This is not something the centre is looking to tackle head-on or by itself. We're really focusing more specifically on where human trafficking is taking place. I do agree that we need to make sure that human rights are at the very centre of whatever approach we take. We cannot just flip the switch and decriminalize and expect that it will result in positive outcomes for everyone. Fundamentally, the reason trafficking exists in Canada is that it generates high profit for people who are comfortable with fundamentally exploiting, manipulating and controlling other people. We need to be addressing both those layers.

[Julie Bauman]

Am I able to add something quickly?

I just want to say that if you want to support and be inclusive of people who do sex work, you have to stop going to prohibitionist organizations who deny the existence of consensual sex work and conflate sex work with trafficking. I have heard two quotes from someone who's a prohibitionist; it eliminates the agency of people who do sex work and choose this work.

I just wanted to add that. It is so frustrating to hear something that is directly exclusive of us and our organization.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you.

Julia, we talked about the task force and putting the needs of the most marginalized first. Based on the centre's research and data, what are the key steps Canada should take today to put the needs of the marginalized first during the COVID-19 pandemic?

[Julia Drydyk]

In the research we recently conducted there's no one demographic profile of someone who is more at risk of being trafficked. Really, it comes down to social isolation and usually emotional vulnerability. That's what traffickers look to exploit when they are trying to recruit, groom and then exploit someone within the sex market.

I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Based on the centre's research and data, what are the key steps Canada should take today to put the needs of the marginalized first during the COVID-19 pandemic?

[Julia Drydyk]

Sexual trafficking is a form of intimate partner violence; often, it can happen through other players as well, but we need to start early in integrating awareness of what healthy relationships look like and really focusing on holistically addressing and reducing sexual exploitation in Canada.

In addition, part of it is that there needs to be better co-operation amongst different law enforcement jurisdictions in pursuing different cases. Traffickers are able to move across the country quite quickly because they are able to avoid law enforcement detection. Those in law enforcement also need to be comprehensively trained in doing trauma-informed work and in making sure they understand the difference between consensual sex work and those who might be being trafficked.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

For the final round, we have Ms. Hutchings for five minutes.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Madam Chair, I will be giving my time to Monsieur Serré.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Monsieur Serré.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you. I wasn't sure I would have the time.

To the witnesses, thank you for your testimony. I want to go back to one of the earlier questions about the role that you would see the government play—at all levels, but especially the federal government—first off on the role of men and boys on the education side. In previous committees we studied the role. It's always been controversial. We need to get money to women's organizations, and we know this, but there seems to be a disconnect with the current organizations and the lack of funding to ensure that more education is provided, especially at a younger age, to men and boys.

I just wanted to get a sense of this. You said earlier that you weren't in that space or that you weren't focused on that. I appreciate that, but if you had some specific recommendations to us as a committee, and then back to the federal government, what would they be?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I just see Ms. Bauman's hand up as well. Is that for this question?

[Julie Bauman]

It is up from a previous question, but if there's time I would love to touch on this as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Okay. We'll start with Ms. Drydyk and then go to you.

[Julia Drydyk]

I think there's a need for real national standards in having a really strong gender-based analysis of the types of things we're doing across curricula. As we know, this is completely led by the provincial government and it's under their jurisdiction. Unfortunately, in Ontario the issue had become so deeply politicized that things were changing and not necessarily aligning with comprehensive best practices and evidence-informed teaching models that can really get to the heart of what we know about addressing gender-based violence in the early stages. Again, I'm not sure how you would deal with those jurisdictions, but unfortunately the issue of sexual education, consent, and what it means to have healthy relationships has been overly politicized. We really need to depoliticize them and make sure that every youth is equipped with the tools to be able to identify unhealthy and exploitative relationships and what to do in that case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Bauman.

[Julie Bauman]

I was just going to say that saying to educate boys and young men to not pay for sex, etc., is oversimplifying. What we need to do is maybe the opposite of that. We need to make sure that youth understand consent, like Julia said, and understand that, yes, you're going to want different things and meet people who want different things, and in those moments you need to be able to express and understand consent. If it is watching porn, is it ethical? If it is participating in purchasing sexual services, make sure it's consensual, ethical. Again, this needs to be more inclusive of people who do sex work, otherwise, like Julia said, this is more about politicizing things instead of actually providing the education that evidence has shown is needed.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you. I'm from northern Ontario and would point out that sometimes in conversations human trafficking is dealt with just in terms of the larger cities, but I know this is an issue in rural Canada and smaller communities that possibly have less support and services. I just wanted to see if our witnesses here would have specific recommendations to the federal government on how we can best deliver services in rural areas.

[Julia Drydyk]

I know that human trafficking is one element.... Service provision in rural and remote communities can be so different from what we see in urban areas. I think this is such an important question.

We absolutely are seeing human trafficking in northern Ontario. One of the things that we do see, too, is that especially along highways 11 and 17, there aren't as many people, so it's actually easier for traffickers to be able to move through those areas without being detected. We also have this perennial issue of where do you place services so that they're accessible to everyone given some of the vast geographic areas?

I think northern communities have shown some great progress in service collaboration and coordination, which really goes to the heart of this, and I think a lot of our rural communities are showing best practices in that, even compared to major urban centres. But we also need to be innovative and focus on how we can use digital tools to ensure that those services are accessible to everyone. Lots of human trafficking survivors have issues with accessing virtual tools. It's not easy for everyone, but I think we need to think about how we can adapt the way that we're working to be able to reach people when they're not necessarily a 12-minute walk from services.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

That's the end of our time, unfortunately. This has been a great panel, and I want to thank the witnesses for their testimony and all of the committee members for their excellent work today.

With that, I'll see you at the next meeting.

The meeting is adjourned.