Status of Women Committee on March 23rd, 2021

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. General Eyre and General Allen, thank you for joining us today.

Over the course of this study, I hope we'll be able to hear directly from survivors in the coming weeks.

Could you tell us if either of you have had any direct conversation with the survivors of sexual misconduct? What have you learned from them? What measures can be used to empower them?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, over the course of the last several weeks, a number of survivors have reached out to me. I've established contact to listen to their stories.

One thing that is apparent to me is that we need to bring in some mechanism whereby survivors can achieve closure, perhaps where they don't necessarily want to follow a legal process. I am very keen to learn more and to see the wider restorative engagement efforts as part of a final settlement coming and perhaps as a learning opportunity to bring in some form of reconciliation process. There's much more to learn here.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

General, have experts in gender-based violence and trauma been involved in the efforts to address sexual violence in the Canadian Armed Forces? Can you elaborate?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, I cannot speak definitively on what consultation occurred before I got into this chair. Definitely, going forward, they need to be part of the conversation and part of the solution.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

We have heard stories recently where the officers who complain of sexual misconduct are outranked by the person they are investigating, or that commanding officers may intervene in the investigation.

Can you tell us the procedure that you expect to be put in place to ensure investigations are truly independent?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

In terms of interference in any investigation, the investigators have the recourse to put in a complaint with the Military Police Complaints Commission if they feel their investigation is being unduly influenced. I understand that you have the commanding officer of the Canadian Forces national investigation service talking to you on Thursday, who will be able to provide you a much more detailed response to that question.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

General Allen, you have had a long and impressive career in which you have worked your way up through the ranks into your new role, which effectively makes you the highest-ranking woman in the history of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Over your many years of service, can you tell us about the change of culture around these issues?

General Eyre, or General Allen, do you think you have seen improvement?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

General Allen.

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I always defer to the acting CDS first for comments, if he would like to make them.

Certainly, Madam Chair, as somebody who has been in the Canadian Forces for 37 years, I have seen a marked change in the same way that we have seen it in Canadian society. However, that is not to say there are not still changes that need to be done and improvements that need to be made. I think progress has taken place over the time of my career, but there is still much more to do.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

Creating a safe and supportive working environment to all members of the armed forces will hopefully be among your top priorities in the position.

Can you tell us what to expect your first steps to address harassment will be in the coming weeks and months? What is your plan going forward?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, we absolutely have to create an armed forces where all feel not only physically safe, but psychologically safe as well, where all members feel that they truly belong, where they can speak up when they see something that doesn't look right, and where they can feel free to identify that as an issue.

That was one of my key messages to our general and flag officer cadre about creating that command climate where all feel safe, where all feel included. It's that type of culture change. We have to get right down to the lowest level. Part of that is understanding the power dynamics I've talked about, but very shortly we're going to be producing a much more proscriptive code of professional military conduct. This goes beyond our current doctrinal manual, “Duty with Honour”, to add much more detail as to what is expected under each of our values, and then we need to hold ourselves to account.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

There's obviously more work to be done, but the government has taken several key steps towards ending sexual misconduct in the armed forces as part of Operation Honour. It also passed the declaration of victims rights and created a sexual misconduct response centre.

To both generals, is there any other advice you can give us?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

That's your time.

Now we're going to Madame Larouche.

You have six minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

It's a pleasure to continue the discussion. I hope that my connection is better than it was in the first hour. I want to apologize to all the committee members and witnesses.

Mr. Eyre and Ms. Allen, it's truly an honour to have you here today. I'd like to make a few comments before I ask my question.

The figures are alarming: 4.3% of women in the regular force and 7% of women in the reserve force reported that they had been sexually assaulted in the context of the military workplace. The figures are 1.1% to 1.2% for men. There's also the issue of the higher prevalence of sexual assault in the military workplace among certain groups of women: indigenous women, women who are members of a visible minority, women who are junior non-commissioned members and other women. In addition, 28% of women in the regular force and 34% of women in the reserve force have experienced sexual or discriminatory behaviour, compared to 13% of men.

I'm sharing this information because I've recently been attending various United Nations meetings that clearly show that the issue of violence is directly related to the concept of equity and equality between men and women. To ensure that more women feel that they belong in the military, follow in Ms. Allen's footsteps, and hold senior positions in the institution, the key is to build their confidence.

I want to hear your thoughts on this matter before I continue with my questions.

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, it is absolutely essential that we address this. In fact, I view it as existential for the Canadian Armed Forces. It's a paradox that as our nation's population grows, our traditional recruiting pool is shrinking.

If we cannot attract the talent that is resident in all Canadians into our ranks, this is bigger than a military problem. This is a national problem, because the threats to our country are not getting any less. In fact, they're increasing. Therefore, if we cannot attract the best that Canada has to offer, that's going to pose a problem for our country.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Perfect.

Ms. Allen, do you want to add anything or should I continue with my questions?

[LGen Frances J. Allen]

In addition to, I think, the efforts and the steps we have to take to attract people from all sorts of diverse backgrounds, but especially women, into the Canadian Forces, we have to take a look at what we need to do as an institution to create the structure and eliminate whatever systemic or institutional bias there may be that will have people opting for choices that perhaps mean that staying with a career in the Canadian Forces is not something they feel they can do. Therefore, taking a look at our institution at the same time is also very important to us so we can ensure that everyone sees a path for themselves in having a career in the Canadian Forces.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Eyre, in one of your responses earlier, you briefly spoke about the importance of a mechanism to properly support survivors so that they can file complaints. You also spoke about a reconciliation process.

I would like you to elaborate on this. How would a reconciliation process help survivors along the way?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, I wish I could. I am in the process of learning about this, and I need to learn more, because from what I'm hearing it offers great potential for victims to achieve that closure.

Over the coming weeks, I'll have some experts come in and talk about the restorative engagement piece. If there's something we can learn for a wider effort across the armed forces for that, I would welcome it.

Thank you.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Okay.

You also spoke about Bill C-65 and Bill C-77 and the implementation of certain measures.

Can you reiterate what you feel is most important in this area?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, I think we're talking about Bill C-65 and Bill C-77. I can tell you right now that we're putting much effort into their implementation within the Canadian Armed Forces and DND in terms of victims' rights, workplace harassment and violence.... That all plays a part in the wider efforts to change our culture.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

In your opinion, these types of concrete measures could help change the culture of silence that exists in the military and that puts too many women in situations in which they don't know where to file a complaint. As stated earlier, the steps must be clarified.

Do you have a suggestion for how to raise awareness regarding their recourse options?

You also spoke about the establishment of an independent external oversight committee to get survivors out of their situation and give them more support.

You brought up these measures and I would have liked to hear more about them. However, I think that my time is up, so I'll try to come back to them later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Your time is up. I'm sorry.

We're going to move to Ms. Mathyssen for six minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

It has been six years since the Deschamps report outlined some of those key recommendations that needed to be implemented. You talked a bit about your plans going forward. They sound very hopeful. I look forward to seeing how they potentially could change things, as we definitely need that change.

Can you talk about implementing the rest of the Deschamps report and your plans for that specifically? What kinds of allocations do you need for that? Can you go into that detail?

[LGen Wayne D. Eyre]

Madam Chair, our plans are very immature at this point. We need to do a stock-taking as to where we are in terms of the implementation of the 10 recommendations that came out of the Deschamps report and from other reports as well, including the OAG report and the reports out of your own committee. We need to take a look at where we are and what else we need to do. I'm unfortunately not in a position yet to state the exact measures to be taken.