Status of Women Committee on April 15th, 2021

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Welcome to meeting number 26 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

We are in hybrid format. We are going to be hearing from our witnesses, and then suspending for a vote in the House.

When you're speaking, wait until you're recognized and then click on your microphone icon to activate your mike. Keep your mike on mute otherwise, and address your comments through the chair. You obviously will have the interpretation button at the bottom of your screen.

Let me now welcome our witnesses for our study of sexual misconduct within the Canadian Armed Forces.

We have today Rear-Admiral Rebecca Patterson, commander of the Canadian Forces health services, and a defence champion for women; Major-General Jennie Carignan, military personnel command; and Brigadier-General Lise Bourgon, the visiting defence fellow 2020-21 at Queen's University, and defence champion for women, peace and security.

Each of you will have five minutes for your speeches. We'll begin with Rear-Admiral Patterson.

[Rear-Admiral Rebecca Patterson, Commander, Canadian Forces Health Services, Defence Champion for Women, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Madam Chair. Good morning.

Good morning to our committee members.

Thank you for inviting me today to participate in this committee. I come to you in my capacity as the defence champion for women.

I joined the Canadian Armed Forces over 30 years ago, which was, if you think about it, where we started the integration of women into all occupations within the Canadian Armed Forces. I have personally witnessed and experienced great advances for women in the CAF. I've witnessed women becoming fully integrated into all occupations and taking on leadership roles that had never previously been filled by women.

In fact, today is quite a moment because it's the first time any parliamentary committee has ever had three women generals and flag officers as witnesses.

Although we've come a long way as part of this evolution, sustainable culture change is a long-term, progressive and cumulative effort, and we have to continue to work to reshape our culture to achieve the ultimate goal of being truly equitable, diverse and inclusive.

As a defence champion for women and a senior leader in the Canadian Armed Forces, I'm committed to the advancement of employment equity. This includes establishing a positive work environment that values the different perspectives an inclusive workforce brings, while embracing diversity as a strength. The CAF will continue to address the complex challenges still facing women with a comprehensive approach to identify and eliminate barriers that prevent women from serving Canada to their absolute, full potential.

Recruiting and retaining women and other diverse groups is seen as absolutely critical for long-term, sustainable culture change within the Canadian Armed Forces. We have seen growth in numbers, but we realize that we're going to have to continue to recruit and retain amazing women who wish to serve their nation in the Canadian Armed Forces.

As a defence champion for women, I remain committed to championing the voice of women by advocating for the desired cultural change. As champion, I'm also in a position to give voice to women's concerns and represent CAF and defence women at senior leadership forums. The Defence Women's Advisory Organization is one such group through which women of the Defence team can connect, express their concerns and be heard. Through this forum we identify systemic issues that are brought forward so that the CAF and the department can address the conditions of service and that we can stop barriers that impact women's ability to serve effectively.

The CAF recognizes that long-term, sustainable culture change requires commitment and engagement at all ranks, from the tactical to the strategic. However, we also recognize that we have a long way to go yet. Establishing a culture of belonging, dignity and justice will help unite us.

Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you so much. That's great.

Now we'll go on to Major-General Carignan for five minutes.

[MGen Jennie Carignan, Military Personnel Command, Department of National Defence]

Madam Chair, members of the committee, it is my pleasure today to appear alongside my teammates.

I am Major-General Jennie Carignan. I have just returned home from leading the NATO mission in Iraq and am transitioning to the position of deputy chief of military personnel for the Canadian Armed Forces.

We have incredible people in the Canadian Armed Forces who do difficult and often dangerous work. I am constantly inspired by them, which is why I am still serving today. My colleagues and I have a combined experience of nearly 100 years in the Canadian Armed Forces.

My own experience as a woman, soldier and leader has been both very challenging and rewarding. I have had the privilege of leading troops in expeditionary operations ranging from traditional peacekeeping to combat, capacity building, and at home in Canada, support to provincial authorities.

During my career as a member of the forces, I have faced three main obstacles: first, the preconception that women are weak; second, the preconception that women cannot succeed in a combat environment; and third, the preconception that women cannot be both soldiers and mothers.

Over the years, I have also found that men face the same obstacles, but we just choose to ignore them because our preconceived notions about men are different. The spotlight remains on women. For all serving members of the Canadian Armed Forces, overcoming these barriers is a matter of both individual determination and, more importantly, support and guidance from peers and leaders who want us to reach our full potential. What we mean by a strong military ethos is that our sisters and brothers in arms are supported at all levels so that they can give their best in the service of Canada.

Unfortunately, in some cases, this guiding principle has been lost. I believe that sexual misconduct is a symptom of a larger problem with a part of our culture that needs to be changed. While it is incumbent upon us to understand that our military culture is what allows Canadians to put themselves in harm's way to defend Canada, as leaders we must remain extremely vigilant about the toxic elements that this culture can produce.

When we see wrongdoing at any level, we must act quickly and fairly. We must foster a culture free of fear of retaliation for speaking out or blowing the whistle. As my colleagues have mentioned, culture change requires a sustained effort on the part of every member of the Canadian Forces to ensure that our behaviours, attitudes and beliefs are consistent with our values. That is why we continue to work to ensure that the Canadian Armed Forces reflect and celebrate the uniqueness of the strength of all Canadians.

Thank you for your attention and I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Thank you so much, Major General.

Now we will go on to Brigadier-General Bourgon for five minutes.

[BGen Lise Bourgon, Visiting Defence Fellow 2020-21 at Queen's University, and Defence Champion for Women, Peace and Security, Department of National Defence]

Madam Chair, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity today to appear alongside my colleagues.

I am currently the visiting defence fellow at Queen's University and also the Canadian Armed Forces champion for women, peace and security.

I began my military life as an officer cadet over 33 years ago at the Royal Military College Saint-Jean.

Since then, as an officer and a maritime helicopter pilot in the Royal Canadian Air Force, I have seen and experienced many of the unique challenges faced by women in the Canadian Armed Forces.

Nonetheless, I believe in the importance of the Canadian Armed Forces and the importance of its missions, and its ability to learn and adapt as an institution.

When I joined the Canadian Armed Forces in the late eighties, women had to change to fit in because it was a man's world. As one of the first women air crew to sail on naval ships, I had to forcefully make my way in, and was even thrown out of a ship because of my gender. Slowly, attitudes have changed. Women made their way. We showed that we belong and that we can make a difference. Slowly, the CAF evolved. From being merely tolerated, women were accepted and welcomed.

Indeed, great strides have been made over the past 35 years and many barriers have been removed, but we still face challenges.

To this day, sexual misconduct remains an issue for the women and men of the CAF. Any form of sexual misconduct within the ranks is unacceptable. It harms staff members, jeopardizes operational effectiveness and is inconsistent with our values and ethical principles.

There is still work to be done to address these challenges, not to mention the structural and cultural inequities that remain at play within the Canadian military.

As part of my fellowship at Queen's University, my research has focused on the integration of women in the Canadian Armed Forces through greater inclusion. Integration is allowing people to come in. However, inclusion recognizes and embraces those differences so that all people feel valued and important and have equitable opportunities.

Therefore, it is time to embrace these differences and create the conditions for women, men, indigenous peoples, LGBTQ2+ community members, and visible minorities to excel and be fuelled by a sense of respect, dignity, safety, and belonging.

This is our opportunity to build a CAF that our people deserve and that all Canadians expect.

Thank you very much for your interest, and I look forward to the question period.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good. It's so exciting to have three powerful women from the Canadian Armed Forces here to testify.

We're now going to suspend the meeting so that we can to vote in the House, and we'll return afterwards to begin the rounds of questioning. It could take 15 or 20 minutes, I would expect.

We'll suspend. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

I'm going to proceed to the first round of questions, starting with Ms. Alleslev for six minutes.

Do we have Ms. Alleslev?

Let's go with Ms. Zahid for six minutes, and we'll come back to Ms Alleslev.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for appearing before the committee today and providing your important input.

My first question is for General Carignan.

Thank you for taking time to provide your input to this study. We can't highlight enough the importance of having a survivor-centric, trauma-informed, feminist lens to sexual misconduct in the Canadian Armed Forces.

General Carignan, you have had an extensive career serving both internationally and domestically. What was the culture in the Canadian Armed Forces in the early stages of your career? Where do you see it now, and what would be your recommendations going forward?

[MGen Jennie Carignan]

My sense of the culture and the culture change is that it's always a journey; it is not an event. We have engaged in a few cultural changes that I have witnessed over my 35 years in the service. We have grown into a different military since I joined in 1986. I have seen great progress.

The military has changed from when I was there. I have a daughter and a son as well in the military, and I've seen changes, but it is clear that we now need to take this further. We constantly need vigilance over our own culture to make sure that we keep its qualities while working on the toxic elements, if I can express myself that way.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

My second question is for Admiral Patterson.

Admiral Patterson, when it comes to sexual misconduct, survivors have experienced negative effects on their mental health and physical well-being. Given the impact on both the body and mind, how important is it to have trauma-informed services and policy changes?

I can't hear you.

[A voice]

Can we suspend? We are having audio problems.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Let's suspend momentarily. You won't lose your time, Ms. Zahid.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

We'll resume then.

We're back to Ms. Zahid.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Admiral Patterson, were you able to hear my question, or should I repeat it?

[MGen Jennie Carignan]

Madam Chair, it would probably help if you could just repeat the question.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Madam Chair, I hope will get my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Yes.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Admiral Patterson, when it comes to sexual misconduct, survivors have experienced negative effects on their mental health and physical well-being. Given the impact on both the body and the mind, how important is it to have trauma-informed services and policy changes?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

I think, first and foremost, what we really need to do is prevent these incidents from happening in the first place. As we approach this, I think we need to look at it from a prevention perspective, and it takes a number of forms.

Primary prevention means that we create programs, systems, policies, structures and training so that people are not likely to cause incidents to happen. We then go into a secondary look at things, such as how we can do better bystander intervention training.

Then I'll talk about survivors. This is where it is absolutely critical that we put this first and foremost in looking at how we better support survivors. Your comment about trauma-informed communication doesn't just come from the health care sector, but needs to be the approach for all communication with people who've survived traumatic events.

With that, it can't just be how we speak. It has to be how we provide support, both from a health care perspective in having the right programs that are targeted for people who've experienced sexual trauma, and even within the chain of command and within our other different structures within the Canadian Armed Forces so that all people know how to approach those who have been harmed. The bottom line up front is that it has to be from the perspective of the person who has been harmed.

Thank you.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Admiral, do you think that any health-related considerations can inform our policy recommendations?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

From my perspective, in my day job, I can tell you that one thing that is always of great benefit is making that we are able to focus on the targeted research required to look at the impacts of all types of trauma on women and other marginalized groups. The majority of research done in Canada is not on the groups that we are talking about today. Certainly in terms of research in health care, it would be extremely beneficial.

Moving forward, we will be looking at all of our programs and basically applying a sex- and gender-based lens to make sure that if we have gaps, we identify where those gaps are. At the end of the day, what we are trying to do is to ensure that all people within the Canadian Armed Forces, regardless of where they're coming from, are getting the care they require to meet their unique and distinct needs.

[Salma Zahid, Liberal, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Thank you, Admiral.

I have one more question. We have seen that there is Stats Canada data on Canadian Armed Forces members reporting sexual misconduct. What are your main takeaways from the data that is available?

[RAdm Rebecca Patterson]

I will take this from my perspective as a commander, and also in terms of the voices of the women in the Canadian Armed Forces. What I take away from it is that we still have a lot of work to do in creating an environment where people actually feel they can come forward and share what has happened to them. Not only can we make sure that we protect them to the best of our ability as they move through the processes, but we can also work on prevention programs to determine why these things happened, who was doing them, and what we can do to actually move forward and maybe have fewer people needing to report in the first place.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Now we will go to Ms. Alleslev for six minutes.