Status of Women Committee on April 22nd, 2021

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Did he ever threaten you?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

Was there a threat, meaning bodily harm? No.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I mean whatever you perceived as a threat—reprisals, consequences....

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

Definitely. He gave me very many consequences if I did not follow his orders, Madam Chair.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Could you give us an example?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

One of the ones that I especially couldn't figure out was that I was going to be questioned by his spouse, who's a lawyer, and questioned over and over and over again if I didn't say the right thing—that somehow she was going to come and see me and question me. He said that I was not to mention certain things about our relationship, our personal lives. The consequences were always the same: that I had to stay silent.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Did you believe that you didn't have the ability to say no? Is that correct?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

I didn't have the ability to say no. They were orders. He would speak at length until I agreed. “A one-way talk” is what we call it.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Do you have physical evidence or any kind of evidence of his inappropriate relationship with you?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

Madam Chair, I have deposed that with the CFNIS: recordings, emails, texts and testimony.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

In your interview with the media, you stated that other senior personnel were aware of the abuse of power that General Vance exhibited toward you. Do you have knowledge that any of them have been contacted as part of the investigation into the allegations against General Vance?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

I have no knowledge. Since I deposed my testimony twice in February, the only thing I've received are two update emails that simply said they were still on the case. No other information has been given to me.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Are you concerned that perhaps the investigation is not being taken seriously and that it is deliberately being undermined or delayed?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

Madam Chair, I bluntly asked the CFNIS if they had the mandate to investigate and they had the powers to lay charges. They would not answer me. The answer was no, because, as the CDS told me, he was untouchable. He owned the CFNIS.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Are you concerned that despite two days of depositions, there's a possibility that you won't have your day in court, so to speak, and that he won't be held accountable?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

I definitely feel that there will not be justice for me. In all honesty, that's okay, because if my speaking out can change everything for other women to come forward and change our policies, that's okay with me, because I was the first one into the infantry when we were allowed to join and I knew I was taking a hard road.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good. Thank you.

Now we'll go to Ms. Hutchings for six minutes.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to both witnesses here today. Thank you for your strength in your past, thank you for the strength here today and, most importantly, thank you for your service.

Lieutenant-General Whitecross, you've had an extensive career, serving both internationally and domestically. What was the culture like in the early stages of your career, and where is it now, and how do you see it moving forward?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

I've publicly stated that the culture of the Canadian Armed Forces when I joined.... Let's remember that I joined in 1982, almost 39 years ago. The culture then was a little different from now. I joined an occupation that had only just allowed women into the ranks, and they were ill-prepared, to be honest, in allowing women to come, but I can't say I experienced all the heartache that Major Brennan has expressed.

It would be no secret to say that it wasn't easy in the first number of years. The introspection I have done of late tells me that perhaps in those early years I could have done a little more, but I didn't, and we can get into that if you're really interested.

Throughout my 38 years of service, I have seen a change in the grander number of Canadian Armed Forces men and women who now work in uniform across the country and internationally. I honestly believe that the great majority of military folks are integrity-based and want to do the best job they can. That doesn't alleviate the fact that there are still problems. These problems need to be addressed, and they need to be addressed quickly and as effectively and efficiently as possible. Also, we need to take really great care and really listen to those who have been affected by this insidious behaviour. I think that's the only way we can go forward.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you for that.

Major Brennan, you touched on education. I've been involved in the discussions across the country from coast to coast to coast as we develop the national action plan to end gender-based violence. We hear at every meeting—and we've heard at this committee—how important education is, especially education with men and boys. Do you know if that's part of the early training at CAF?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

There is no segregated training for young boys. Courses are given, just as every other course is given at CFLRS, where I was posted. They highlight this education for them like any other course. It's not specific to boys or girls or young men or young ladies who join.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you for that.

Lieutenant-General, you talked a bit about the international lens. What factors should we consider for CAF members deployed outside Canada? How can we best address and prevent sexual misconduct in that context?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

Madam Chair, I don't think we can differentiate in Canadian Armed Forces individual behaviour, whether they're inside or outside Canada. The values we uphold here in Canada have to be distinctly upheld, and probably more importantly in the international theatre, because I honestly believe people really do look to Canada for a value system that isn't necessarily in place everywhere that we deploy.

It sounds almost counterintuitive that I would be saying that, given the situations of the last number of months. The reality, however, is that Canadian Armed Forces members are expected to exhibit high morale and high ethics whether they're in Canada or international.

[Gudie Hutchings, Liberal, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you for that.

Lieutenant-General, I live in a very large rural riding, as my colleagues often hear me say. Do you see any difference between rural and urban behaviour of military members, or does that not come into play? You just said that everybody's behaviour, whether internationally or in Canada.... Do you see any difference in behaviour patterns between urban and rural?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

I don't think I ever looked for it, so I would never have presupposed somebody was from a rural or urban area depending on the way they treated people. The bottom line is that you've got to treat everyone with dignity and respect, regardless of where they come from and regardless of whether you're working within the confines of Canada or externally. Seriously, that was never part of my psyche.