Status of Women Committee on April 22nd, 2021

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

I believe my comment in the CBC interview was that there is a misunderstanding within the rank and file, within the uniformed members of the Canadian Armed Forces, about who they can go to.

There are a lot of different support networks available, whether through the chain of command, the MPs, the military police, the medical folks, the SMRC or the ombudsman. There are a number of them. However, I do maintain that reporting is the number one issue that has to be addressed. People need to feel confident that they can come forward and that their concerns are going to be addressed, not only in a dignified and very sustained way but also in a very quick and responsive way. If this means we need to increase the number of people they can see, perhaps through an external organization of some sort, we really need to consider that.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Ms. Brennan, when you were stuck in that unfortunate situation and you couldn't say no to Mr. Vance, what recourse did you have? Were there any options?

How can this type of situation be prevented in the future? Can you provide some recommendations?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

Thank you for your question.

I want to suggest something new. At this time, you can't refuse to serve as the superior of another military member in the chain of command. However, I think that, with the benefit of hindsight, you should be able to refuse to serve as the superior of another member.

This would make a difference for many people. We know that we shouldn't be the superior of a military member with whom we have or had an intimate relationship. We know that this undermines the judgment of the person in authority and prevents them from being a good leader for the other member.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I want to thank our witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we will go to Ms. Mathyssen for two and a half minutes.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Major Brennan, we have heard in past testimony that there were women who couldn't find justice internally and had to take external measures. You yourself said that you may not find justice. Could you expand a bit on that? Do you see that sometimes the only way is an external system?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

I definitely see that going outside of the military a lot of times feels more comfortable, more natural, because talking to your chain of command about personal issues is not a comfortable thing to do, so definitely, I think that option is.... I think that it should be an independent body where people can go, if you want to name a police force to investigate, because these crimes are Criminal Code of Canada crimes. These are violations of human rights; they are not within the military. They're not within the NDA, and the NDA's section 129 is misconduct.

Therefore, I definitely see this being outside of the military. Military people are still Canadians who have violated the Criminal Code of Canada and should be tried there.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Interestingly, we consistently hear about that challenging of the chain of command and that it's just not done. In terms of your specific circumstances, you alluded to this before, but in terms of that control, that power, we've heard a lot about power and about not understanding what the responsibility of that power is.

In your specific circumstance, could you talk a bit more and expand upon what you're talking about in terms of the power that General Vance had in your unit and over the people in his command?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

Power dynamics for me, and what I want to illuminate, is that it's something that you walk up.... Sometimes they call it “the black robe” or “the boys' club”. It just means that there's a circle, and you're not in it. There's a power, and you are not part of it. You are powerless within that. If you do one thing in other areas of your career, that's where you're going to feel it—on your PR, on your evaluation—and that's why it's bigger than you.

[Lindsay Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

That's why—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

We will go now to Ms. Sahota, who is splitting her time with Ms. Alleslev.

[Jag Sahota, Conservative, Calgary Skyview, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

Major Brennan, you said earlier, and I quote: “I definitely feel that there will not be justice for me.” That's not the Canada that any of us stand up for, let alone you in putting the uniform on for us.

I'm going to ask you if there is anything you want to say to General Vance for what he put you through, and to the Canadian Armed Forces, which has allowed such activities and the culture to run rampant?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

I honestly would just like the truth. I have no goal. I have no aim. I just want the truth. That's what would satisfy me: the truth.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Go ahead, Ms. Alleslev.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Lieutenant-General Whitecross, you gave the impression that this gives you a change in perspective on perhaps the breadth, depth and scope of what the Canadian Forces is facing. I wonder, if you were in your position again, what you would do differently. Is a culture change going to take more than processes? Will it also need to have accountability by those who have behaved inappropriately, as well as oversight of those individuals?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

If I were still serving, I think my focus would be on maintaining the momentum that has been created in the last couple of months to ensure that we do hold accountable those individuals who have broken the law or conducted themselves in a way that is contrary to what is expected of a Canadian Armed Forces member.

I am not completely unconvinced that won't happen. I feel for Major Brennan. I feel for her. I feel for the situations that she and many of her colleagues have been through. I do not believe that the majority of Canadian Armed Forces women—or men, for that matter—are participating in this insidious behaviour or are victims of this type of behaviour. I shouldn't use the word “majority”, but I would say certainly not all are. I would say that we need to maintain the momentum that has been created in the last couple of months. I think this is a watershed moment.

I mentioned this in the past. This is something that you cannot let go, and we must not only maintain the foundational work that is required but also hold people accountable, of all ranks, and that includes for microaggressions. When people say things that they think are funny, we need to tell them that those things are not funny and that in fact they are crossing the line. I think we need to be far more vocal about these little things so that they don't start to grow.

As Madam Deschamps said, you create a sexualized culture that allows small things and then that morphs into very large behaviours that are completely contrary, and I think we need to address them right at the beginning.

Sorry for the long answer.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

We heard from another witnesses who said that this is too important to get it wrong, and that if we don't get this right, there will be an even greater loss of confidence that we can get anything right. That's why I was asking if you agree with that. As you said, it starts with little things, but it is about individuals and their behaviour and about being held accountable as much as it is about processes. Would you think that's fair?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

That's absolutely fair. It is about people. Behaviours and a respectful work environment are about how people treat people, and if they aren't living up to the values that we as military folks espouse, then I think they're in the wrong business, regardless of whether they're in the military or anywhere else. This sort of behaviour shouldn't be accepted at any stage.

Thank you.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Now we'll go to the final five minutes with Ms. Vandenbeld.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

Major Brennan, I want to thank you so much for your courage in speaking up. I do very much believe that your speaking up and the chain of events that has happened since are making a very big difference, and I want you to know that. I'm really sorry you have to relive all of these things again in your testimony today. I know that is something that's very hard to do.

There was just one thing that you said in your testimony that I wouldn't mind getting clarification on. You said you worked with Minister Sajjan in Downsview, which, I believe, is in Toronto. What year was that? Could you just clarify the testimony on that?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

I was posted in in January 2006 and I left in April or May 2008. It was during that time. I would say that he came in after I did. I don't know the exact dates when he was posted in or posted out. I would have to look at the records.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Okay. It's just for the record. I'm not questioning you. I just know that Minister Sajjan also testified and verified that he has never worked in Toronto. He was a reservist in Vancouver and he did his workup training in Edmonton. I'm not questioning; I just wanted to try to get some clarification so that we can figure out exactly what happened there.

That's not the reason we're here today; we're here today because we want to make sure that what happened to you never happens again to anybody.

That's my other question, Major Brennan and General Whitecross. How do we prevent this kind of thing from happening in future? Are there things we can do differently right now that will create a situation so that this kind of thing simply doesn't happen? It's important to get support for survivors, which we've talked about, but we want to stop it in the first place.

I'll start with Major Brennan and then I'd like to hear from General Whitecross.

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

I think if I had to give one nugget of what we could do to change, and what would have helped me and many women whom I've spoken to, it would be that obedience does not mean silence. If a woman is hurt and wants to speak out of turn, I don't think she should be silenced and told by the chain of command to stop acting like that and get over it: “You chose the hard career—adapt and overcome.”

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

General, would you comment?