Status of Women Committee on April 22nd, 2021

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Did you have any sort of perspective on any of the other senior officers who perhaps would have been around him at the time? Did he feel that, in part, the law didn't apply to him?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

In my experience, in many different areas, the law does not apply to him. He doesn't....

On a personal note, he fathered two children with me. He's not responsible to pay or to have those children under his responsibility. It's all up to me. He's excluded himself from a lot of portions of Canadian society that we hold as responsible. I think it has just become a habit with him.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Oh, my goodness, that must be very tough on you.

You said, and I was discouraged to hear it, that you believe that justice won't come for you, but thank you for doing what you've been doing.

You also mentioned that there were others in those six hours of testimony over two days. It wasn't just General Vance. There were other senior leaders who were complicit, either through their inaction or through things that they actually did against you. Are you concerned that they won't be held accountable either?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

Accountability for their actions will take a court of law or a charge. That is not my goal. If that happens, that will happen, but that's not the reason I'm doing any of this. I want people to understand the leverage, the power dynamics that play into this, how leaders grow and use information to then become stronger. That's what I experienced.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Perhaps this could be viewed almost as an epic battle between the existing culture and the culture that we want to change it to. Do you believe we can collectively defeat the boys' club if none of those senior leaders are held accountable for their actions? Does that not risk, at the end of the day, their being able to say, “See? We won, and we've protected the status quo”?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

I think that in the military, we win; that's what we're trained to do. I think that winning is breaking the silence. In all honesty, if every woman can speak her truth, that is a win. I think that is justice.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Could you tell me what position Major Sajjan had at Downsview when you worked with him?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

To my best recollection, he was a special projects officer.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

What position did General Vance have?

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

He was the COS. He was the chief of staff of the—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

And you—

Go ahead; sorry.

[Maj Kellie Brennan]

Sorry; we call it a division now, but it was LFCA headquarters back then.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we'll go to Ms. Sidhu for five minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to both of the witnesses for joining us this evening, and for their many years of service to this country. Thank you for your courage.

I know this is a difficult and sensitive subject, so I want to tell the witnesses that if there are questions that they feel uncomfortable about, they can choose not to answer.

My first questions are to General Whitecross. Can you discuss your experience at RMC? Do you have any recommendations for CAF and DND to prevent sexual misconduct and harassment?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

I did not go to the Royal Military College, except for my master's program. I went to the sister university, Queen's, so I don't have any experience back from the early 1980s as to what it would have been like while I was there.

I can tell you that when I was the chief of military personnel prior to going to NATO, I was responsible for the Royal Military College and had a couple of opportunities to look at how leadership was being developed, the academic program and a number of other issues. There had been and there continues to be some positive work happening, not just on the sexual misconduct issue, but on a number of different HR issues, particularly mental health as well, and providing mental health supports to the officers and naval cadets. That's where my experience lies.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

What type of training, including in the cadet curriculum, especially on the mental health perspective or any other training...?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

I'm sorry, Madam Chair; I am not up to date on that. I'm sure Major-General Whelan could get that information for you.

I can say that in the last couple of years, there have actually been mental health experts who are physically positioned right at the military college, to my understanding, so that they can provide an immediate resource to any of the officer cadets or the staff who may be having any issues.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Were there any recommendations from the response team on sexual misconduct, which you led, that have not been implemented?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

To prepare for this appearance, I've been reading some of the reports from the last little while. Obviously, when I was in NATO, I wasn't particularly into the details of what was happening here in Canada. However, I estimate that probably the majority, if not all, of the recommendations that we put through at the time have been addressed.

In addition to that, a whole slew of new ones came through from the people who led the strategic response team after my departure.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

What recommendation would you like to make now?

[LGen (Ret'd) Christine Whitecross]

I have a couple, to be honest.

All of the foundational work needs to be fully maintained. We need to work on the policies. We need to work on training, education and all that stuff that's already been talked about.

I also believe that it's time to set aside the thought that the Canadian Armed Forces could probably deal with this internally. They need to seek resources elsewhere to help themselves out. If that means an independent review, an independent investigation arm or an independent judiciary—whatever—we need to be looking at that. I am not convinced the answer can come from within at this particular moment in time, because we have lost a lot of trust, so I would really encourage that.

There is a congruency between treating people with dignity and respect and being a war fighter. Some people don't believe that, and I believe there is no place for them in the Canadian Armed Forces. I think we need to be very clear about this. We need to be clear about the expectations and what we will and will not put up with.

There are a number of other things, but I know my time is limited.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Ms. Larouche, you now have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to assure our two witnesses that they have our full respect.

My question is for Ms. Whitecross.

Do you believe that the military's internal investigation process is flawed? Let me explain, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. In an interview with the CBC, you urged victims of sexual misconduct to come forward. You said that there was a misunderstanding in the armed forces' chain of command about the reporting process and the people whom the victims can contact. You also listed some options.

Can you tell us about these options? What would be the best course of action for a victim seeking justice? What are the chances of success?