Status of Women Committee on May 11th, 2021

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you again to the witnesses.

General Trudeau, I'd like to follow that line of questioning.

The last time you were here, certainly you left me with the impression that everything is pretty much operating effectively and perfectly, with no challenges in the CFNIS and the entire military police community, and that there really wasn't much that needed to be done differently by you and your organization.

We then saw the Facebook post. We've had media articles that say testimony sometimes gets lost, that people perhaps don't get charged, or that different charges are laid in different situations.

I am having some trouble understanding how people would have trust in the system if in fact that were true.

Do you believe there are some challenges you need to address, or is everything pretty much operationally effective and nothing needs to change?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, as I stated in my opening comments and in some of the testimony I gave, I think there are things that we need to improve internally in the military police, for the interaction with victims, for some training that we give our police officers, so that with the human, personal aspect of when the victim comes in, they feel safe and secure. From the patrol officer to the CFNIS, it's that the person throughout the process feels safe and supported and listened to.

One thing we are focusing on, and I've had numerous discussions with the CFNIS on this, is in what we call the preparation phase of the victim. A victim comes in to the police to talk about what's next in the process, to talk about options. It's to encourage the victim to ask questions, because we could be in a situation where a victim reports—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, General.

What about the actual investigation process? Are you confident that every investigation is meeting the rigorous standards that you've set? Do you have an internal audit ability to verify and double-check that the attitudes, behaviours and structural process are being met by all of your military police, regardless of what rank or authority they might be investigating?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, yes, I'm confident that the investigations are professionally and thoroughly conducted. Facts are gathered, evidence is analyzed and charges are laid as required. Every investigation is different, and they are treated as that, but I'm confident in our ability to fully investigate allegations reported to the CFNIS and the military police.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

But how do you know? What oversight mechanisms do you have in place? What internal audit? In the case of the Facebook post, how would you have found out that these were the attitudes and behaviours of your military police had there not been a newspaper article?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, certainly, for quality control or quality assurance, we have a program within the CFNIS to continuously do quality assurance of our files to be aligned with policies and SOPs in the conduct of files.

From an oversight perspective, there's also the Military Police Complaints Commission, which is charged as an oversight body of our policing duty and functions.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Earlier we heard testimony from Dr. West. She was charged, fined and repatriated because of a fraternization situation. We also know that Lieutenant-General Coates, the deputy commander of NORAD, was guilty of a similar offence, yet was not charged, fined or repatriated.

Could you shed some light on whether no rules were broken and on whether, in one case, the individual, Dr. West, was wrongly charged and fined, or whether Lieutenant-General Coates was wrongly not held accountable for breaking the rules?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, I cannot comment on those investigations. I have no specifics on that and—

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

No, but in general, would you be looking—

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Your time is up, Ms. Alleslev.

[Leona Alleslev, Conservative, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

—to see if they were broadly looked at across the board?

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Mr. Serré, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Madam Chair, I will yield my time to Ms. Vandenbeld.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Ms. Vandenbeld.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you to both of our witnesses for being here today.

General Trudeau, thank you for being here once again.

I would note that in your opening remarks you mentioned the current circumstances, of course, and the things you're learning from much of the testimony that we have heard in this committee and elsewhere. You also mentioned that you are looking at things like professionalization and bringing in outside experts. Why is it important to have outside expertise in order to improve the processes we have right now?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, it is important because we get different perspectives on how to improve our processes and how we can better meet the needs of the victim.

We used that process very effectively in 2018 in the sexual assault review program, when we instituted an external review team that came in and looked at some of our files. Moving forward, I'm giving some thought to maybe calling in the ERT to review some of the processes that are more related to how we interact with victims.

I'm in discussion with Dr. Preston on how I can improve, and I'm looking forward to having opportunities to engage with victims to learn more about their experiences and how we can improve our processes and our programs overall. We hear things like “duty to report” and “duty to respond”, but I think that for us, as a police service, we have a duty to protect the victims and make them safe. That's the message I'm keeping with me moving forward and in taking actions in that regard.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you.

You've mentioned that you are working closely with Dr. Preston and the SMRC, the sexual misconduct response centre, and also with Lieutenant-General Carignan, who we just had as a witness.

I noted also that you have provided some recommendations to Justice Fish in his review of the justice system. Madam Arbour, in her terms of reference, also includes a review of the justice system.

Could you talk a bit about the work you are doing in conjunction with the SMRC and others and talk about how you're working together to make sure that we improve the process as a whole?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, with the SMRC, to improve the process, it's really to get expertise on the victim services and how we can get better. As mentioned in my previous appearance, we have an NIS member as a liaison officer embedded with SMRC. For victims who want to stay anonymous and understand the process, they can tap into those resources, who will explain the process. If victims are willing to come forward, he will facilitate the transfer of the files.

We've been working closely with the SMRC since its creation. We're going to continue our collaboration to improve my process, because there's a lot of expertise in SMRC, and they can help us get better at meeting the victims' needs. I think that's important.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I very much appreciate your recognition that the victims, the survivors, those impacted, that their needs are not always met in reality and your efforts to try to make sure that we improve those processes.

You used the term “victim-centric”, which, of course, is also a big part of Bill C-77, the declaration of victims rights. Can you talk a little bit more about how you are modifying and adapting the way in which you do investigations based on the survivor testimony, based on looking at it so that your focus really is victim-centric?

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Madam Chair, as I alluded to in my opening remarks, the first action that is taken is to make sure that all MPs get the trauma-informed approach. I will take the training myself. All my senior officers will take the training. Every MP in the Canadian Armed Forces will have to take that training. That is how seriously we see this.

Then we'll adjust the training with regard to the focus and even the quality assurance. I've talked to some of my senior MP commanders to tell them that when they do quality assurance on a file, they need to pay particular focus on interviews with victims. They need to make observations on empathy, listening skills, and then the feedback from the chain of command locally to the investigators. We're looking at professional development sessions to really improve our service to, again, as much as possible, meet the needs of the victims.

[The Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Very good.

Ms. Larouche, you now have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I thank Mr. Guy Chapdelaine, the chaplain general of the Canadian Armed Forces, for his testimony.

My question is for Brigadier-General Trudeau.

As Provost Marshal of the Canadian Armed Forces and Commander of the Canadian Forces Military Police Group, you have spoken about the issue of independence.

We also talked about the importance of anonymity for victims in the complaint process. It was emphasized how reporting an assault can have consequences for multiple victims.

If an investigative process for General Vance is undertaken, at what point will he know and how will he know? I am asking this question so that I know how independent you are.

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Thank you for your question.

You ask me when he will know, yet this is information that is already public.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Actually, I'm asking how it happened when he found out. Obviously, I'm going backwards in terms of the investigation.

[BGen Simon Trudeau]

Generally, when the police department receives the complaint, an investigation is initiated. A process must be followed.

At some point, the person being investigated is interviewed, and that point depends on the nature of the investigation. Every investigation is different, and the timing and circumstances under which the person under investigation is informed are influenced by several factors, including the integrity of the investigation.