Evidence of meeting #120 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was control.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
You do not. We're already about 30 seconds over, so we'll wrap up at that.
In saying that, this has been some pretty alarming testimony.
I would like to go into a third round. I have been somewhat lenient with some of the time, so for our members in the room and for our witnesses, I will be firm and tight on the minutes moving forward. We'll have five minutes, five minutes, two and a half, two and a half, five and five.
We'll start with Dominique. You have five minutes.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
I'll get back to my topic.
Ms. Rioux, I'm very interested in parental alienation.
Madam Chair, let me know 30 seconds before the end of my time, because I have a question for Ms. Jeshani.
With regard to reunification therapy and reunification camps, if I understood Ms. Vandenbeld's question correctly, it's not necessarily the result of a court order.
Did I understand correctly, or am I mistaken?
Coalition of Families Victims of Post-Separation Abuse
The court gives the order, but it's the therapists who write the prescription. It becomes almost impossible to get out of it. As soon as you oppose it, it's seen as alienating behaviour.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
So you are before the court, which declares that you must undergo reunification therapy. That's how it is done.
Does reunification therapy include the father and mother? Are the children present?
Coalition of Families Victims of Post-Separation Abuse
There are different stages. What I've heard from victims is that the process often starts with the parents. We often hear that the mother has to apologize. She has to write a letter apologizing for her alienating behaviour due to her abusive ways. Children are obliged to attend sessions with the father. When we talk about camps, we're talking about spending two or three days in isolation with the other parent and therapists, who are sometimes abusive.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
The more we hear about this, the worse it sounds.
What is the purpose of reunification therapy?
Coalition of Families Victims of Post-Separation Abuse
It's about forcing the child to have a relationship with the father. This is done when the child refuses to have a relationship with the other parent or wants to minimize contact with the other parent. When there's an order and the child doesn't want to go spend the weekend at his father's or sleep over, that's when it happens.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
So they draw the conclusion that if the child doesn't want to go to his father or doesn't want to talk to him, it's because there has been parental alienation on the part of the mother.
Coalition of Families Victims of Post-Separation Abuse
[Technical difficulty—Editor] … question of loyalty, and it's the youth protection branch, or YPB, that takes this action.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Okay.
You tell us that reunification therapies aren't even taught in courses for psychologists.
Where does this concept come from? What university program does it appear in?
You can't improvise yourself as a reunification specialist overnight, especially when it's based on bizarre foundations.
Coalition of Families Victims of Post-Separation Abuse
Courses on this kind of therapy are given in the United States.
The concept comes from an American psychologist who claims to be in favour of pedophilia. It is not accepted in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, or DSM, nor in the UN's International Diagnostic Book.
So they are self-described specialists.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Judges aren't all complete lunatics. They're brilliant, intelligent, trained, educated people who have a lot of judgment since they were appointed as judges.
However they're going in a direction that you describe to us as excessively problematic.
How do you explain that?
Coalition of Families Victims of Post-Separation Abuse
It's an easy solution. Even if the child doesn't want to go, they're sent to reunification therapy. They don't have to listen to abuse stories they don't want to hear.
It's a concept some psychologists have believed in for several years.
Conservative
Dominique Vien Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
All right.
I don't want to get tomatoes thrown at me, but, in your experience—I'll close on this, Madam Chair—out of all the parental alienation cases, how many are warranted, in your opinion?
Coalition of Families Victims of Post-Separation Abuse
Honestly, I'd say none of them.
Conservative
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, and thank you to all of our witnesses for being here with us to answer some questions on this important topic.
You have all expressed the great concern with coercive control. We all agree that it's an extremely important thing we need to look at. It's the first step in an abusive relationship, so it could definitely escalate and become violent and much worse, and it has major psychological impacts on women and children.
Does everyone on the panel today agree that coercive control needs to be criminalized? You can all respond.
I see nodding everywhere.
From what I understand and from the conversation that has been had so far, currently it is not seen or recognized as an actual issue, so if somebody does report it to the police, it's just not considered and nothing is done about it.
We have spoken about parental alienation as well. From what I've heard now, psychologists are the ones who kind of... Can you clarify?
Coalition of Families Victims of Post-Separation Abuse
Social workers are the ones that are promoting this, except in Quebec. Psychologists are promoting it in Quebec, as well as social workers.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
I'm wondering why that would be. Obviously psychologists in Quebec have training and understand how the brain works and how a child's psychology will be impacted by certain decisions that are made.
I guess I struggle a little bit with putting a ban on something like parental alienation. The reason I struggle with it is that I'm sure there are cases in which on either part, the mother's or the father's, it may actually be at play.
What safeguards can we put in place if we are going to go that route?
Coalition of Families Victims of Post-Separation Abuse
SHERA, in the U.K., has done some research, and they call it CAMS. It's getting rid of the maternal bond; it's separation.
In the case of the laws on coercive control in the U.K., it has been found that if there's sufficient training of police officers under the Crown and you look at it through a lens of domestic violence first, it becomes very clear who the problematic parent is, because yes, there's counter-parenting that happens, but it's not alienation.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Okay.
Would you happen to have statistics on how often the mother is the one accused of parental alienation, versus the father?
Coalition of Families Victims of Post-Separation Abuse
There are statistics on the VAW network's website, and they're Canadian studies. I don't know them offhand, but it's a good 70% or 80% of the mothers.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
I'm also directing this to everybody. I see that someone has their hand up. If you want to jump in, you can.
My question is this: Is there a nuanced way of approaching this, or is it just a ban? I'm curious about that, because I think children do benefit from having a relationship with—