Is the question for me?
Evidence of meeting #128 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was femicide.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #128 for Status of Women in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was femicide.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director General, CAVAC, Estrie Region, CAVAC Network
I'm not sure I understood the question.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
I'm just asking this: What would you say would be the top lessons learned that we could take away from from your experience in the delivery of the program in Quebec and in the delivery of the Crime Victims Assistance Centre?
Director General, CAVAC, Estrie Region, CAVAC Network
The pressure should be taken off the victims. I want to come back to what my colleague Ms. Gagnon said. It's important to look at what can be done about perpetrators of violence. Those within the justice system should also be given more power to stop perpetrators of violence.
Coercive control could be included in the Criminal Code, but action should also be taken with respect to conditional release. The people who work in the justice system should be given more power to intervene in certain situations. Too much of the onus is still on victims. They need to file a report, explain everything, find all the information and give it to the authorities.
That's what my experience would suggest.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Well, maybe I can turn back to the folks over here.
On the same question, what would you say is the number one recommendation?
Executive director, Canadian Anti-Stalking Association
I can't speak to the Quebec context, but if you mean in general, we need to change the law around criminal harassment in Canada. We have recommendations to change the law. Specifically, the criterion that you have to prove that you are afraid for your safety is too subjective. It's not working, and it relies on sexist tropes of how women demonstrate fear. It needs to change, and it can change. That's my recommendation.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Just like that, MP Roberts, you have the floor for five minutes.
Conservative
Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
I'm going to start with both Julie and Lenore, if I can address you. Thank you.
You made a comment earlier about 86 recommendations. I'm going to get back to that in a minute on a couple of notes, and then I want to ask the chief of police a question as well.
I met with a community group from York Region called CCSYR . One of the things they do is to have individuals from other countries come to a group that does all different kinds of things. They knit. They do yoga. Some of these women come, and in the beginning, their husbands have to come with them because they have to monitor them, and when they see that it's just knitting or whatever, then they leave them and say that it's a safe place for them. It's not until that happens that these women feel the opportunity to speak with some of the counsellors about the abuse, because they do not realize what laws we have in this country. A lot of the seniors who go there are still experiencing this issue of violence.
You both said earlier that there were 86 recommendations. Lenore, you said that you were at this committee 10 years ago. What has changed?
Director, Sexual Violence Prevention and Response Office, Equity and Inclusion Office, McMaster University
That's a big question, and I don't have very much time.
I want to follow up with what you're saying. What you said about the group you just talked about really struck me. When I worked at the sexual assault centre in Hamilton, we ran a sewing circle. We ran six or 12 at a time because they were a safer space for women, and they were run in 10 different languages, so they were language-specific. I remember thinking that this is going to be hard to justify to our funders, but I knew that this was what we needed to do to bring women in.
I love that you.... I just needed to say that because I think we need to think outside the box.
Conservative
Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON
The reason I bring this up is that we had meetings on coercive control, and one of the witnesses made a statement that shocked me.
Her husband had repeatedly tried to beat her and poison her. When she had him arrested, her father told her—these are her words, not mine—to go and get him released from police, because she was bringing shame to the family. When she said that he would kill her, her father's response was that he'd rather see her carried out in a body bag than shame the family—so there's a culture situation there that we have to address.
Chief Betts, do you feel that “catch and release” is a bad situation for women? In Ontario, of 444 municipalities, 94 have reported an increase in this situation. That amounts to just over 300,000 women. That's 300,000 women. Do you think catch and release is not helping women stay protected?
Chief of Police, Peterborough Police Service
I'm going to say yes. I think it isn't helping Canadians to stay protected in many instances. For the purposes of this conversation, yes, it often results in a heightened sense of risk and danger.
As we've just heard, an accused who's been sent to jail will be released on bail or through some form of release. On top of what was already a tense situation, he's now angry. He's now embarrassed. He may feel a loss of power and a loss of control. We suddenly find that there is a heightened risk to the victim and the person who's made this complaint. We are stuck with trying to help with managing for safety programming. The police provide safety programming and provide emergency contact phones; it's not enough.
So the answer is yes.
Conservative
Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON
Thank you for that.
Julie, I'll go back to you.
Do you feel that if your perpetrator had been left in jail, where they could probably have given him some counselling, although I don't know if it would have helped, you would have been better protected instead of his being released?
Executive director, Canadian Anti-Stalking Association
He was never even arrested, so there's that.
I mean, absolutely we can talk about bail conditions, but let's talk about the threshold that we're actually using. He was 19 years old. He'd never been in conflict with the law before, so the police said he was not threatening. They acknowledged that what I experienced was harassment, but they did not think it was threatening.
I can't even talk to you about bail, because we're not even arresting people, let alone rehabilitating them and let alone—
Conservative
Anna Roberts Conservative King—Vaughan, ON
Would you say that one of your recommendations to ensure the safety of all women and for you to feel protected would be to maybe allow....
As the police chief just said, as they come out, they're more angry and they're going to retaliate on the woman. In terms of your recommendations, would one of them be to maybe assess them and keep them in jail a little longer until you can get a safe place?
Executive director, Canadian Anti-Stalking Association
Yes, but I also want to look at what we're doing with these men when they're incarcerated.
The idea is that people don't die in jail in this country; they come out. What are we doing to actually rehabilitate abusers? That's where I would love to see the conversation.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Shelby Kramp-Neuman
Thank you, Ms. Roberts.
At this point, we have Emmanuella for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to all our witnesses for being here to discuss this with us.
Ms. Lukasik-Foss, I want to push a little bit on what MP Roberts asked. You didn't really respond to the second part of that question, and that was actually where I was headed. You did mention that there's been an increase in the last 10 years. Not only has there been an increase; while we've seen other crimes decrease, femicides have increased.
I'm wondering what factors you think may be contributing to this.
Director, Sexual Violence Prevention and Response Office, Equity and Inclusion Office, McMaster University
I didn't get a chance to answer, so thank you for bringing it back to that conversation.
We know that the factors that keep women stuck in dangerous and abusive and violent relationships have gotten worse. Those are things like affordable housing; access to stable jobs; access to child care, although there have been some improvements in communities; transportation; and just difficulties in life. We know, particularly postpandemic, that things feel very hard in communities. We know that a lot more women are remaining in situations in which they're experiencing abuse, because the alternatives feel very, very hard and scary, or else alternatives are not available.
When I worked at the shelter and we had to turn women and children away, we were devastated. This is a normal thing now. We know that hundreds of women are turned away every day in shelters, so I think people don't want to leave. That's why it's worse. I think things are very difficult for everybody right now, and that will impact survivors.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you very much.
Around that, what would be your top recommendation?
Director, Sexual Violence Prevention and Response Office, Equity and Inclusion Office, McMaster University
It's hard for me to say a top recommendation, as there are so many things.
Implement the five pillars of the national action plan. I know those are not exciting things to hear, because they're expensive and not low-hanging fruit.
Also, there's the gender-based violence commissioner. It's such an important role, because it will create accountability. Nobody wants extra layers sometimes, but I think we have the answers. Let's get it moving. That's what I think.
In 30 years.... I know it probably won't end in my lifetime, but I want to have hope for my children.
Liberal
Emmanuella Lambropoulos Liberal Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you so much.
Madame Lalonde, you mentioned that you would make changes to the Criminal Code around criminal harassment. I'm wondering what changes these would be, specifically. You spoke a little bit about education and about making sure that people are aware of what their rights are, but what in the code would you change?