Status of Women Committee on Oct. 30th, 2024

[Julie S. Lalonde]

Thank you.

I actually wrote down the specific recommendation from the femicide inquest, because that's exactly it. What they and I recommend is this:

Undertake an analysis of the application of s. 264 of the Criminal Code with a view to evaluating whether the existing factors adequately capture the impact on survivors. Consider the removal of the subjective requirement that the action causes the victim to fear for their safety.

In short, to prove criminal harassment, I have to prove that it is unwanted, that it is repeated, and that it makes me fear for my safety. Where it falls apart is with regard to the fear for their safety, because we have multiple cases in which women were seen to be angry towards their abuser, and that was used to say, “Well, if you were angry, you weren't scared.” It literally comes down to a subjective idea of how a woman demonstrates fear: She cowers or she cries. If you don't do that, if you stand up for yourself—which is what we tell women to do—that could actually backfire in a Criminal Code context.

What we want to see is changing that piece of “fear for your safety” to “impedes your ability to go about your daily life”, which is measurable. I had to change my shift. I had to move. I had to change my locks. I had to add all of these pieces. It makes it much more difficult for a justice to argue that you didn't really seem scared if you had to change all of these things about your life.

It's an easy, easy fix that will literally save lives. It's so easy to do this.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you so much. I appreciate both of your answers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

You have 40 seconds.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

To the policeman, you said that femicide should be in the Criminal Code, that it should be a crime in the Criminal Code. You said that it's because it would be considered a hate crime. When we talk about hate crimes, we're talking about how the person has hatred towards a community or a group of people, I would imagine. That's what I have seen in terms of hate crimes. I don't know if there's a specific definition—there probably is—but I don't have it at hand here.

However, with regard to most of the victims we've been discussing today, it's really motivated by a lack of control over the person after the person has left a situation, a relationship. Is there any nuance there that we can capture? Does that fall within hate crimes?

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Sadly, we are already about 30 seconds over. Since we're already a little bit over, perhaps you could try to encapsulate an answer to that in another opportunity when you have to answer. I'll stick to one minute and 30 seconds next time.

We are beginning our third round.

Michelle, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

There has just been some really powerful testimony and really strong recommendations from all of our witnesses on IPV, intimate partner violence. It's a very important discussion. It's hard to open up news and not read of another attack. It's become normalized, sadly.

Ms. Lalonde, I really appreciate your recommendations on changing the Criminal Code in terms of criminal harassment, in terms of stalking. The fact that your attacker was never even arrested is pretty shocking to hear. Thank you for putting that on the record.

Ms. Lukasik-Foss from McMaster University, is there any data on the increase in the cost of living and an increase in domestic or intimate partner violence?

[Lenore Lukasik-Foss]

That's an excellent question.

I don't have the research at my fingertips, but we know intimate partner violence cuts across all socio-economic classes. Folks at all levels are experiencing domestic violence.

However, we also know that if you have lower financial resources or housing resources, things can get worse. We know that if an abusive person loses work or is dealing with other kinds of stressors, it can increase the violence that's already there. For example, during COVID, we had more calls to domestic violence shelters and heard from more victims.

When things get worse, we know this violence increases. I don't have the research in front of me, but I know it.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

If there is data you want to table, we would love to have it. I think it's very valuable for this conversation.

You touched on something that I think is very important in getting at the heart of the policy. We are the federal government in this room. It has to come down to a policy for what we're going to do. There are all kinds of different things, like culture, but if we don't change legislation, nothing happens. When you see not enough housing, record-breaking numbers at food banks and crime increasing exponentially after nine years of this government....

Ms. Lalonde, you said you brought forward these recommendations. You sat through, probably, one of the most horrific triple femicides in the history of Canada. When you read what this man is, “monster” isn't the correct word. There's a psychopathic something there. That's why I would love to have a psychologist testify on this. There's that aspect.

Why have your recommendations never been implemented?

[Julie S. Lalonde]

I will say that the federal government responded better to our femicide inquest than the provincial government. The folks at this table were more open to those recommendations than my premier was. There is some room for joy, frankly.

However, yes, it's a problem. That man first committed domestic violence in 1985, the year I was born. Thirty years later, he killed three women. Nobody in the community was surprised. The police themselves knew he was a risk to the community.

I want to address something, because I too sat there and thought, “What a monster.” I want to give a shout-out to Malcolm, who is the son of one of the murdered women. He was part of the inquest, and he was very clear in saying, “That was somebody's son. He was a human being. He was allowed to be that way.” We can absolutely have a conversation around the psychology of people who commit those crimes, but he was a human being who was clearly set down the wrong path. No one corrected his behaviour for 30 years. That scares me.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

You're an incredible person.

[Julie S. Lalonde]

Thank you.

[Michelle Ferreri, Conservative, Peterborough—Kawartha, ON]

You touched on a point that is so much bigger when we pull it out. A lot of people watching this study are writing to me, because it's impacting so many. They say, “Men are also victims.” Okay, let's have that honest conversation. If we keep teaching women how to be defensive but we are not teaching boys how to be good, we have a serious problem.

I'm going to end it with Chief Betts.

The last round of questioning I had with you was on the children who are recognizing this. From what you see as a police officer, Chief Betts, can you give us an example of how intimate partner violence escalates and how it often, sadly, ends in murder?

[Stuart Betts]

Chair, through you, if I'm understanding correctly, we have seen an escalation in violence this year, at least in my community, in relation to intimate partner violence. For example, so far this year, we've had three attempted murders in relation to that, while we had zero last year. We've had 11 incidents of firearms being used in intimate partner violence. That's up from four last year. We're seeing a cycle that hasn't changed. We've seen a significant increase in assault with weapons causing bodily harm, which is up from last year.

I think you're onto that cycle of violence we spoke about in the first round. How do we intervene? How do we stop it? It's one thing to put a point on it right now, in terms of Criminal Code offences, bail and sentencing, but if we don't get down to prevention among the people perpetrating it or who may be likely to perpetrate, it doesn't matter what we put in to this end; we're not going to break that cycle of violence. Sadly, I think we know what happens if we don't put those pieces in place early.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you, Chief.

Thank you, MP Ferreri.

Next, we have Marc. You have the floor for five minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here. They've given us a lot to think about.

Thank you for your comments, Ms. Lalonde. I know that you come from a rural area in Sudbury.

I would like to ask you about victim services. At the last meeting, Ms. Walker and Ms. Alexander talked about them. They said that there was intimidation and a lack of resources. They also said that prosecutors don't really work for victims.

Earlier, you said that there was still some confusion about the respective roles of the federal and provincial governments. You touched on some of the things that Mr. Ford said. Also, a lot of the witnesses don't want to talk about the role of the provinces. I completely understand that, since it is not up to victims to say which level of government is responsible.

That said, I would like to hear your assessment of the services provided to victims through the courts and prosecutors. I would also like to hear your comments on the roles the federal and provincial governments play.

What recommendations would you like to share with the committee?

[Julie S. Lalonde]

Education isn't just what happens in schools. The federal government can intervene in a number of ways. It can launch ad campaigns and programs to raise awareness. It did that during the pandemic. When it was deemed a crime to share intimate photos of someone without their consent, the federal government raised awareness about that.

It's commonly thought that the provinces have to be the ones to address the problem, but that reflects a very narrow view of education. Broader education initiatives such as awareness-raising campaigns provide another tool. I definitely think the federal government has a role to play in that regard.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Educating the public, men and boys, is one thing, but training judges, prosecutors and police is another consideration. They are part of the system, which seems to have some major problems.

[Julie S. Lalonde]

I completely agree.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

What about education or training efforts on that front?

[Julie S. Lalonde]

There isn't enough focus on that. I completely agree that those within the justice system need more training, prosecutors, police officers and the like.

The government should make training mandatory for them. You shouldn't be allowed to be a police officer if you can't recognize what constitutes domestic violence. You shouldn't be a prosecutor if you don't know the kind of trauma victims experience or how that trauma affects their testimony.

To me, that's self-evident, but there is a lack of awareness and education. It's the government's job to change that.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

We've heard the stories of many victims of violence. The opposition thinks that putting the perpetrators in jail is the only solution. You brought up prison overcrowding, the horrible conditions in prisons, the lack of education for prisoners and the fact that they come out worse than they were going in.

I can understand why victims and a certain political party would say that the solution is to put people in prison, but it's not always that simple.

The police chief talked about the catch and release situation. He said that providing victims with support isn't a straightforward process.

How can we address that?

[Julie S. Lalonde]

It is important to keep in mind that prisons are gender-specific. Take, for example, a man who goes to prison for being violent towards a woman. He's in jail with other men. Since he doesn't have an opportunity to rape or abuse a woman, he'll eventually be found to have good behaviour.

Prisons are gender-specific for a reason. However, it's crazy to think that putting someone in jail is going to change the attitude of a man who exhibits sexist and violent behaviour towards their wife or spouse.

In the prison environment, it isn't possible to see how these men behave towards women. The prison system can't help these men because it doesn't provide them with any education or training about violence against women. At the end of the day, people whose behaviour in prison is deemed acceptable are released into the community. That is inevitable because there are no women in their immediate environment, so they don't behave how they normally would in a different environment.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

That's excellent. Thank you.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

That was too quick, Madam Chair.