Status of Women Committee on Dec. 9th, 2024

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

It's the opposite, as far as I'm concerned.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I want to talk a little bit about political rhetoric because a few years ago, when we had passed Bill C-16, I became the target of a Campaign Life Coalition phone thing about abortion and also trans rights. It was because we didn't want Rachael Harder chairing the status of women committee when she voted against Bill C-16 and did not support a woman's right to choose. I actually answered the phone at one point and when I asked the woman...she said to me that trans people don't actually exist. She was a lovely older lady, to be honest with you, but she had been fed all this information and truly believed what she was saying to me.

In February, the Leader of the Opposition said there's no space in women's bathrooms, change rooms, shelters, sports and more for trans women and trans girls.

At the last meeting, I mentioned that there was a nine-year-old girl in British Columbia with a pixie cut. A parent demanded that she provide a birth certificate to prove that she was actually a girl. This actually transcends far beyond just kids who are questioning their identity; it's making people question all kids who might look different.

I'll start with you, Ms. Johnstone.

How does the political rhetoric out there impact the way that Canadians think about issues?

[Fae Johnstone]

Thank you very much for the question. I hope to respond a bit to the previous statement as well in my remarks.

First, I think the political rhetoric encourages and emboldens the playground bullies to mistreat the trans kid, the gay kid or the kid who just looks a little bit different, so it contributes. When you're hearing your political leaders say that there's a conspiracy in schools and that there's a concern around this gender ideology thing, it emboldens that kid—who might be a teenage hockey jock; I know those kids well from my days in those hockey change rooms—to mistreat their trans or queer peer.

Just to set the record straight, I was in the room for Bill C-16. I was also in the room for the effort to ban conversion practice and I did see half of the Conservative caucus vote against the initial iteration of that bill.

I also saw that the previous leader's—Erin O'Toole—removal as leader was contributed to by what I believe was his pressure on the Conservative caucus to ensure a vote in favour.

I would add that there is great concern when you have a politician or a party leader—Pierre Poilievre—going to the defence of premiers in Saskatchewan, Alberta and New Brunswick, who are overriding the charter-protected rights of those children and who are rationalizing and defending the restriction of health care access for vulnerable young people.

I do not believe this is intrinsic to the Conservative Party. I look on my parents who voted Conservative. I have many Conservatives in my circle. I remember reading Ms. Lantsman's article in The Globe and Mail, I believe it was, urging the Conservative Party to leave this homophobia and transphobia behind.

The concern I have is that there is one party in Canada elected into the House that is engaging with dog whistles and rhetoric and I think we see that with the remarks on gender ideology. I don't believe this is intrinsic to Conservatives. I just invite us to make this a non-partisan issue. It's hard to do so when we see this rhetoric continue to be used at rallies and when we see no Conservative member of Parliament, including our age-old allies in your party, speak up internally or externally to express concern.

I watched fearfully as the Conservative Party convention, last September, voted in a policy that would ban me from accessing women's washrooms. I think about the homeless trans woman who's kicked out of her house and her inability to access a woman's shelter if that policy passes into law, despite those feminist organizations wanting to serve her.

I don't want this to be a Conservative issue. I don't want this to be a Canadian issue. However, when your leader and certain members of your party make it a Conservative issue, I will do everything I can to cease that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

You need to be mindful, as well, to go through the chair.

[Fae Johnstone]

I apologize.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I only have 20 seconds left. I did have a question about support at home, but maybe we'll get to that in another one.

I certainly agree with you. I remember a Conservative member filming a video in a men's washroom and questioning why there were tampons in there when we offered free tampons. It was subsequently deleted, but it was put out there.

Anyway, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Andréanne, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'll go back to trying to find solutions. I would like to have recommendations that we could include in our report to counter this hate, this rise in hate against communities.

Online hate and artificial intelligence have been discussed. However, education is also needed. We want to strengthen the presence of organizations in communities to raise awareness. All of this was covered in the witnesses' opening remarks.

Mr. Testaouni, knowing that education obviously falls under the jurisdiction of Quebec and the provinces, what can the federal government do in terms of funding to help organizations?

How can it collaborate, at least in terms of education?

[Naoufel Testaouni]

The federal government can provide funding to organizations like ours working on the ground to help them create training programs.

The biggest danger we're facing is online disinformation. That's what we're talking about today. Programs need to be created to educate not only young people about online disinformation, but also the entire population. Everyone must be able to recognize it.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

That's what your organization does in various spheres of society, particularly in the workplace. I'm also thinking of Fondation Émergence, which focuses on raising awareness among seniors through its Aging Gayfully initiative. Each organization has a specific clientele. As for your organization, you are looking specifically at the issue of human resource recruitment and everyone's place in the workplace. In your case, more sustainable funding would be helpful.

Is that correct?

[Naoufel Testaouni]

Yes, that would be helpful.

There should also be training programs on artificial intelligence so that developers can develop technological tools on ethics and inclusion. They need to develop models capable of not only recognizing online hate, but also blocking it.

Thought should also be given to designing programs for companies and developers of artificial intelligence systems so that they can develop models that recognize online hate and manage the problems that go with it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

That's great.

Thank you.

MP Gazan, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

I want to let everybody know here that this is not enjoyable for me. Humanity was one of the things that was brought up, and one of the things I know about it is that when you strip people of their humanity, you can justify the most unjustifiable acts.

I know, just from my own history, what that looks like on the ground. I worry about somebody getting killed, which is why I was really supportive of this study.

I want to go back to the dangers of imposing the notwithstanding clause and feeding into social conservatism. I know there have been petitions tabled on the floor of the House of Commons denying the right to access bathrooms in the name of women's and girls' rights.

Is this a growing risk? I don't think I'm being paranoid, which is why I think....just because I see it happen in real time.

What can we do as legislators to protect our Canadian charter, which is currently under attack in the name of so-called freedom? I call it "freedom for some and not for others".

Can you answer that?

[Bennett Jensen]

A commitment by all political parties not to use the notwithstanding clause would be very welcome, especially in this context where we're talking about a tiny population that is not well understood.

The idea that the interests and rights of that population could be overridden is terrifying, and I echo your concern about death. It is chilling, and I may sound dramatic, but I don't intend to be: I am terrified about the rates of suicidality that will happen and already are happening.

We're seeing policies in this country that mirror what we've seen south of the border, and we now have evidence from south of the border that the policies result in up to a 72% increase in suicidality for gender diverse youth because they are the subject of political discourse and ill thought out policy objectives.

It's really a scary moment; that's what I would say.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I would say that human rights are human rights. When we attack the human rights of one, I always question who's next, especially when we're doing it in the name of freedom, and that freedom is actually infringing on the human rights of an increasing number of populations around the country.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you, MP Gazan.

Anna, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses.

Excuse me. I have a bit of a cold.

I want to address a crime issue that is concerning to me. The latest crime stats for the last six months of 2024 compared with the whole year of 2023 show it is up by 50%. That scares me. Recently, in my own community, a young child witnessed his father getting shot by a repeat offender and now feels that he let down his father because he couldn't protect him.

When we look at hate crimes and their percentages, 48% of hate crimes are based on race; 29% target religion, and 13% involve sexual orientation. In terms of cybercrimes, 41,162 were reported from January to June 2024 just this year alone in Canada. That's alarming to me.

People are running scared. They're afraid. I have constituents who tell me they're afraid to even open the door because they don't know what they're going to see. I had a constituent this weekend who had just installed a camera, one of those.... I don't know what they're called.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Was it a doorbell camera?

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you.

Someone was ringing the bell while wearing a balaclava. She immediately phoned the police because she wondered why this person would go to her door.

With this huge jump in crime against women especially, and against LGBTQ+ individuals, as well as the online crime, what does this government need to do? I'm seeking your advice. What can we do to prevent this? We obviously have to change the sentencing, but what would you suggest?

[Bennett Jensen]

Thank you for the question.

I think I would disagree with what I heard at the end about sentencing, but more generally, this is where the law is really limited.

One of the most frustrating parts of my job as a lawyer is that people often want a clean legal solution to complex social problems, and there often isn't one.

I think what are being raised are really complex questions of the way...almost the temperature of the nation. That's why I keep talking about taking the temperature down and how we can see each other's humanity.

We can criminalize whatever we want. We have clear charter rights. But we can't shake our charter at somebody when they're coming at us to commit a crime. That isn't, of course, how it works.

We need to live in a society where the norms that we are enforcing among ourselves are protective and inclusive, and value all of us. The rising hate online and the kind of increasing polarization that we see in our society are, I think, the challenge, which is why I'm so grateful to this committee for undertaking this study. There are complex answers.

I don't think there is a clean legal solution here. This is why I chose to spend my remarks talking about being really careful with the way folks in a position of leadership in the country speak about these issues. They can often be inadvertently inflammatory. I think that most political leaders are very well intentioned, but there are consequences sometimes from the ways in which these issues are spoken about.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Mr. Testaouni, you shared with us that you came from Morocco. What is the penalty there for hate crimes compared with Canada?

[Naoufel Testaouni]

There are no clear laws around that.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Okay, there are no clear laws.

One of the things I feel that we need to do in this country is to get educated. I agree one hundred per cent.

For me, it doesn't matter where you come from or who you are: Everybody should be treated with respect. My grandparents raised me that way, and to this day, I believe that one hundred per cent.

What do we do to individuals who don't abide by the laws of this country, who continue to commit these crimes? If we continue not to punish them, how will they ever learn?

[Naoufel Testaouni]

We want the Internet to be safe for people to use and for our communities to thrive on it. There are multiple solutions to find.

Regarding online hate, there is a lot of education, which we've discussed, that needs to happen, but we also need these online platforms to have more moderation to limit the spread of hate. We need them to report the numbers and the individuals who have been reported so we can find solutions together.

There is a lot of work that needs to happen, and we're committed to doing that work with all of the parties. I invite you to work together on this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Shelby Kramp-Neuman]

Thank you.

Thank you, Anna.

MP Serré, you have the floor.