Status of Women Committee on Jan. 30th, 2023

[Sophie Gagnon]

It's extremely complicated. The best situations we've seen.... We have an expertise in the artistic environment, so in the arts, and the best examples we've seen are where there is really authentic and strong leadership from the top of the organization to ensure that there is change.

Unfortunately, sometimes we see these situations more when there has been a change in leadership, because the persons who apply the sanctions and who are responsible for organizational change aren't personally tied up with the situations that led to the complaint. It's extremely difficult to see such a change in culture without a change of leadership, but there's no easy answer to your question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's perfect. Thanks so much.

We're now going on to our next round. It's going to be three minutes, three minutes, one minute and one minute.

Anna, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question will be for Professor McLaren or Sophie, whichever one of you wants to answer it.

I'm not sure what you heard about the testimony from Mr. Moss and that the allegations could not be proven. I don't know how many times you have to be told different stories, from different athletes, to take action. I don't know who he's protecting. To be honest with you, I think he's protecting himself.

What I want to know is this: How do we protect children? You talked about accountability. What mechanisms can we put into place to ensure that this behaviour does not continue? Do we have to install cameras in gymnasiums? Do we have to install cameras to ensure that we prevent the situation that's going on, because obviously these young adults—and young children—are coming with their problems and we are doing nothing about it.

[Sophie Gagnon]

I can quickly offer some thoughts.

First of all, I myself am a lawyer and I believe many people wrongly use principles of criminal law to discuss sexual violence in the workplace or in day-to-day life. For example, the presumption of innocence, and so on, is not relevant outside the criminal courtroom. That's one.

Second, if we want to implement change, the first step for an organization is to clearly define what types of behaviours they wish to see, and what types of behaviours they do not want to see anymore. Organizations have full control over these definitions. They can use what the law says as inspiration, but they can be much bolder and more courageous than what the law says.

So there's defining the standards, and second, training the people inside the organization to understand these standards and behave by them, and third, making sure there is a mechanism in place to file complaints when these standards are not met, to make investigations, and then to have sanctions.

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Okay, so we've talked about educating the coaches and we've talked about addressing these issues, but obviously it's still failing.

Basically, the impression I got from Mr. Moss, which is very disappointing, is the fact that if it was his child maybe he'd take it more seriously, but we need to stop it. We need to stop it now. We can't wait another year, or two years, or three years, because it's impacting these young adults—and young children—and it's going to carry on with them. It's going to create mental health issues.

How do we stop it? Do we put in cameras? Are we allowed? I'm not a lawyer. I'm not going to sit here and pretend I'm a lawyer, but is that a mechanism that we need to protect the innocence of victims?

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

Can we just refrain from personal attacks, like referring to the person's children? I find that really offensive, personally.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Okay. That's very fair, Marc.

When speaking, let's just.... I'm just going to remind you that it's time for the answer to this one and you have only about 15 seconds to respond. Who was that question for?

[Anna Roberts, Conservative, King—Vaughan, ON]

Could I have Professor McLaren, please?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Mr. McLaren, you have about 15 seconds.

[Richard McLaren]

I think to protect them immediately is very difficult because you have to change roles and behaviours, and that requires clear rules, as Sophie was speaking about. It requires education of the people involved, and then aggressive, appropriate administrative action on the part of the sport. That is all going to take time. You can just instantaneously protect children, but those are the steps that need to be done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We're now going to move over to Marc Serré for three minutes.

Marc, you have the floor.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here with us today.

My first question is for you, Mr. McLaren. You did a study with Gymnastics Canada. The recommendations, including the ones you made about institutions, were implemented through the Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner—OSIC—just six months ago.

If there were to be a national inquiry, that could represent approximately 4,000 athletes. Yet there are thousands more athletes at the local and provincial levels. If there were to be an inquiry, it would take years to conduct it, but it would be possible to do so.

What specific recommendations would you make today to reinforce the powers of the OSIC, support national organizations and resolve dilemmas with local and provincial organizations?

Which recommendations would you like to make to the government today to reinforce the powers of the OSIC?

[Richard McLaren]

My recommendation would be to require the provincial and territorial organizations to implement all the policies and procedures in the universal code that the national federation has, and that the provincial and territorial organizations require those at the grassroots to have the same rules and regulations, so there is a harmonious system throughout.

I know there are a lot of legal problems with doing so, but I think that's the answer to improving the system and making it effective. Right now, it doesn't go down to the grassroots.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you for the 46 recommendations you already made. I believe you already submitted them to the committee.

As for the Universal Code of Conduct to Prevent and Address Maltreatment in Sport, how can the federal government support provinces and local organizations? What are your recommendations on that?

[Richard McLaren]

Moves need to be made by the national federations to be co-operative, and provincial and territorial organizations need to be more accepting of the role of the national federations.

How can the federal government do that? I think it's only by encouraging greater co-operation and discussion, since it really doesn't have the legislative authority to push it down to the provinces and further down to the grassroots.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's perfect. Thank you so much.

We're going to Andréanne for one minute.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Gagnon, for contributing to this study, which leveraged your expertise. You effectively demonstrated your experience with culture change.

Mr. McLaren, you’ve drawn up several reports sponsored by organizations in the field of sport. They were rumoured to in survival mode and singled out for their inaction after many complaints of abuse and mistreatment. You recently did the report for Gymnastics Canada and Canada Soccer.

How much were you paid for each of these studies?

Could you table your mandate letters with the clerk?

[Richard McLaren]

Which reports are you speaking about? If it's Gymnastics Canada, then yes, I can.

What other ones are you thinking of? I've done a great number.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I was talking specifically about Gymnastics Canada and Canada Soccer.

[Richard McLaren]

Okay. I'd have to check the Canada Soccer one. Canada Soccer was a different type of review from the Gymnastics Canada one.

I can tell you what the Gymnastics Canada fees were right off the top of my head. It was $200,000.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

If you can provide that additional information, Mr. McLaren, on that secondary one and send it our way, that would be fantastic.

[Richard McLaren]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We're now going to go to the final round of questions.

One minute goes to Bonita.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you so much. My question is for Ms. Gall.

We've heard today about the need for a culture change. Certainly, we know there are embedded patriarchal norms. We have it here in government as well.

I know you've done a lot of work on hockey in your filmmaking and storytelling. I was just wondering if you would be able to share with us some of what you saw of distinct differences and attributes in two different gender-based hockey cultures.

Is there something positive that you could share with us, where one could take up the other?

[Dr. Donna Gall]

What's positive is the fact that this conversation is happening at all, because in 2015, when I made the documentary about women in sport and I was trying to tell stories about athlete safety and issues of sexual abuse, I couldn't find anyone who was willing to talk to me about these issues. Waneek Horn-Miller sort of explained her experience at Water Polo Canada, but I wasn't able to find people whose experiences we are hearing like the stories we heard today. It's amazing that these stories are told.

In terms of hockey—I don't know if I'll have time—I would just like to say that, if you're going to talk about changing culture, we have to understand that culture is made up of discourses, how athletes are represented, and how young people in particular see female athletes in a highly sexualized manner. There are impacts to athlete safety with that. Yes, it would be great if young girl hockey players could see themselves having a career in hockey one day. That would be fabulous.