Status of Women Committee on Jan. 30th, 2023

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Hello, Mr. McLaren, can you hear me?

[Richard McLaren]

Yes, everything is working for me.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's fantastic.

Richard, we're going to start your five minutes right now.

[Richard McLaren]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the members of the committee for asking me to report on the work I've done with Gymnastics Canada.

Briefly, about myself, I'm a professor emeritus at Western University law faculty. I've been working in various high-profile reviews and investigations in sport and sport integrity for a number of years. I'm best known, perhaps, for the investigations I did for the World Anti-Doping Agency about the Russian state-sponsored doping problems connected with the Sochi Winter Olympics.

I have a group of people who work with me who constitute a highly specialized team. We do a considerable amount of investigative work, but we also do a number of other activities and reviews. We have done a lot of work for a number of different sports organizations.

What we focus on at MGSS is mitigating risks related to ethics and governance within organizations. Our mission is to help sports organizations protect and enhance their brand, navigate difficult organizational issues related to ethics, governance and integrity, and inform strategic business decisions.

That's just a very quick background of myself and McLaren Global Support Solutions Inc. Let me turn to the gymnastics project we did for Gym Can and reported on last week.

There are two parts to that project. One was to assist the sport to develop a framework or road map for how a cultural review should be conducted by Gym Can for the benefit of the gymnastics community. That was the largest part of the project. The other part was to look at their safe sport policies in place, determine if they met international standards and recommend any changes that would be required.

The methodology of our work involved research into over 1,000 members of the Canadian gymnastics community. We did 58 personal interviews and conducted two surveys. One survey involved input from the provincial and territorial gymnastics organizations, and the other was an open access public survey of the gymnastics community in Canada. There were 974 individuals who responded to our research surveys. Almost 500 of them were gymnasts.

Let me turn to the highlights of the report.

The gymnastics community demands change and strongly supports a rigorous independent cultural review to be undertaken. The research team wanted to know the extent of the appetite the gymnastics community had for a cultural review. Was it necessary? If so, what should it entail?

More than 1,000 voices representing the gymnastics community in Canada provided feedback. Most of the gymnasts in the sport reported positive experiences. However, toxic examples of abuse and maltreatment persist at all levels. Coaches, judges and staff have also reported maltreatment. Themes or areas of concern were identified through the survey and interview work to establish the foundation for the future work on a cultural shift of gymnastics. It should be noted that most gymnasts interviewed and surveyed reported positive experiences. Nevertheless, there are examples of abuse and maltreatment at all levels of the sport.

The cultural review should be led by an independent interdisciplinary team and have a human rights-based approach included as a key feature of the proposed cultural review framework.

I would welcome questions about what we've done and anything else the committee would wish to ask me, and hopefully I will be able to respond.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much, Mr. McLaren.

Working on the fly, because we have a bit of committee business, I'm going to mess a little with times, if that's okay. I was going to go four minutes, four minutes, four minutes, four minutes, which brings us up to 16, and then we'll go three, three, one and one. That will fill in all of our time.

We'll start over on this side with Mr. Waugh.

Kevin, you have the floor for four minutes.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and welcome, guests.

I'll start with you, Mr. McLaren. Thank you for your comprehensive report and your 46 recommendations.

Part of the problem with all national sport organizations is that you have provincial authorities but then you have the federal authorities, and several of those don't match.

If you don't mind, I saw that four or five provinces have one direction and three or four other provinces go in another direction, so that seems to be an area of concern. When you have a national sport organization like gymnastics, you have those that have veered off in other directions and, at the end of the day, you have several opinions—right or wrong—compared to the national sport organization.

Do you want to comment on that? I think that at that level, when you're getting into a sport and everybody wants to reach the Olympics, you see some differences between the provincial and national bodies.

[Richard McLaren]

You're very correct, sir. There are considerable differences between different levels.

Specifically, talking about gymnastics, which is what we reviewed, there's the club level, then the provincial and territorial level, and then the national level. The different levels don't particularly get along with each other. The provincial levels challenge the national organization frequently. There's not a good rapport there. The provincial levels also have difficulties with the grassroots clubs that are the foundation, really, of gymnastics.

That problem is common across most sports in Canada. The national federations have only a limited jurisdiction and have to get the co-operation of the provincial or territorial organizations, and those organizations need to get the grassroots group to co-operate as well.

Unfortunately, in gymnastics, that system does not work in a well-integrated fashion. There is a considerable friction between the different levels of the sport.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Yes. We've seen that throughout the years. The framework and the safe sport policies are good, but we need more people to speak up when they see stuff that shouldn't be happening in the sport, whether it's in gymnastics or other sports for girls and women in Canada.

We have to thank Kim Shore. I see that in your report, at least at the end, she did send you...because Gymnastics for Change.... We know what has been going on for a number of years. It can't continue. It is these people who have competed and have seen stuff who need to be the voice of those coming into the sport. Thank God we have the Kim Shores of the world coming forward, with her story and others.... Can you talk about that?

I've just listened to Mr. Moss. I don't think he's listening to those who pay his paycheque, if you don't mind me saying so: the grassroots. I was very disturbed. I don't know if you heard him, but he was on the previous panel. There are major issues with gymnastics, and I would say that it starts with the executive director.

I want to say thank you for doing the interviews, because it is those people who need to be heard in this investigation.

[Richard McLaren]

Well, we did not conduct an investigation. What we were trying to do is understand what the community felt was needed. Was a cultural review required? If it was, how should it be done and what should be a part of it? We were trying to build the foundation for a review that would be conducted by an independent group of people subsequent to the release of our work. They would have a head start for the information that was available.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thanks, Mr. McLaren. I have to switch it over now.

Anita Vandenbeld, you have four minutes. Go ahead.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much.

I would like to start with Professor McLaren.

In your recent report on gymnastics, you made a number of recommendations. One of them was that there needs to be better monitoring of national sports organizations. I wonder how best that would be done. I know there's a move right now to build into the contribution agreements clauses that would have these kinds of requirements, but I'd be interested in your views on that.

The other recommendation you made was that there should be more supports for athletes. I think all of us here are very concerned about what happens to an athlete when they are harmed and what kinds of supports they do or don't have. Could you elaborate on that a little as well?

I have another question after that for the other witnesses, so could you do that in a very short time? Thank you.

[Richard McLaren]

I will try to be brief.

As to the monitoring, accountability is a problem in any sport. Gymnastics has a problem that many other sports have. There needs to be some oversight. Most sports are trying to tackle that problem by establishing some form of an integrity unit that has an ability to be independent, and check that the sport is doing everything it's supposed to be doing according to its constitution. That's the monitoring point.

Being more supportive of athletes is certainly required, particularly in gymnastics. You are talking about very young children who start at the club level in that sport. Education is probably the most important part of trying to get that support—education that doesn't just go to the children but also goes to parents, coaches and others involved, such as trainers, physios and so forth.

I'm sorry, but I missed your third point, or you didn't give me your third point. You were going to raise that, I think.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Yes, you covered both of my points.

I would like to ask Ms. Gagnon the same question about the supports. We heard earlier today from the sport integrity commissioner that there is a helpline. If athletes call that line, they can get referred to legal aid. I know that your organization is providing that support. You also said that more needs to be done.

Could you tell us how likely is it that a young athlete who needs legal assistance is able to access that assistance? How do we make that more prevalent?

[Sophie Gagnon]

Usually, the resource that is the best suited to be on the front line to assist athletes, or victims, are psychosocial organizations. I would recommend that these psychosocial resources be made aware of the availability of legal support, that they be trained to explain what kind of legal support is offered, and that they also be trained to put the parties in touch. That is with regard to the victim and legal information support.

For the legal information support to be effective, in our experience we need much more than legal information or a one-time conversation. We would really recommend that a lawyer be assigned to the file of a specific victim, that the documents be read, and that documents be drafted should documents need to be drafted. There should really be a counsel and client relationship established in order to make sure there is trust, and that legal advice is relevant to the situation at hand.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thanks so much.

We're now going to pass it over to Andréanne Larouche, for four minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I’ll proceed quickly, because time is running out.

Ms. Gagnon, you said you don’t have expertise in the sports community, but you are aware of similar issues with abuse of power in other communities. You know that athletes no longer trust the system in place. They came before us, federal MPs, asking us to act and change the culture.

Furthermore, statistics show that the system implemented by the federal government after Hockey Canada’s scandals simply doesn’t work. Indeed, the Sport Integrity Commissioner stated that two thirds of the complaints her office received were deemed inadmissible.

You worked with the Committee of Experts on Support for Victims of Sexual Assault and Domestic Violence, which tabled its report, Contrer la violence sexuelle, la violence conjugale et Rebâtir la confiance, in December 2020.

Given the toxic environment in which sports communities find themselves, do you agree that partisanship should be set aside to set up an independent commission of inquiry, as we saw in Quebec? Victims requested it to help them rebuild trust.

[Sophie Gagnon]

This discussion, which was fruitful in Quebec, was notable because it went beyond the law’s traditional framework. Normally, we look at who is the victim and who is the alleged aggressor, and we make sure the alleged aggressor is held responsible for their acts. That’s good, but it falls far short.

To actually achieve redress in such a case, and avoid other similar cases in the future, a complete culture shift has to happen. We’re talking about overhauling governance and training, and reconsidering values.

In short, no matter what elected officials decide, it’s essential to go beyond the binary limitations of traditional justice, which opposes the accused and the complainant. We need a much more comprehensive review of the parameters of justice and trust in an organization.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Gagnon.

Time is running out, so I will now ask Mr. McLaren a question. I may come back to you during my second round of questions.

Mr. McLaren, in your report, you talked about three possible models for creating an office to accept and process complaints. This is in response to the requirement for a universal code on abuse in sport. The government chose the Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner. However, in your view, the problem is that it could simply become another patch on the disparate sports system already in place in Canada.

Could you quickly elaborate on that?

[Richard McLaren]

The idea I was trying to get at is that it's established in the universal code of conduct as very important as a first step. Then, the sport at all levels—right down to the grassroots level if it's going to be effective as a national, harmonized system—needs to be involved in it. When you come to a sport like gymnastics, where there's a considerable difference of opinion between the grassroots level, the provincial-territorial level and the national level, that doesn't work. That's what I meant by it's being a patch or a band-aid on the system unless you can change the culture, as Sophie was just talking about. Again, a much better-functioning hierarchy of the administration of rules, regulations and practices from the grassroots right up to the national federation level.... That's a major cultural change.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Perfect. Thank you so much.

We're now going to turn it over to Bonita.

Bonita, you have four minutes.

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you very much.

I would like to thank Ms. Gall and Ms. Gagnon for really shining a light and even talking about shining a light to expose some of the things that really need to change in sport. I also want to recognize the power imbalance. That's why it's so important that this committee be here having this discussion. We need to correct that power imbalance, especially for the youngest kids, a lot of them—a disproportionate number—girls.

My initial question is for Mr. McLaren. It's around sharing with us how much the gymnasts want their sport and that they want it to be safe.

We heard earlier from Mr. Moss that there are a number of complaints every week, but that they're properly addressed. You mentioned in your opening statement that your organization explored policies and the work you did.

Can you explain the process of how gymnasts are protected from abuse by Gymnastics Canada?

[Richard McLaren]

It's a very quick overview, and it's a very detailed issue.

As Mr. Moss was referring to, there's a code of conduct, and then there are safe sport practices. I think, from listening to him, there's no necessary interconnection of those—while I think there should be. The safe sport policies that we reviewed.... Unfortunately, the sport changed its policies to harmonize more with the UCCMS within the few weeks of our report. Our analysis of all that is based on a prior version of the sport's code, and we need to do some supplementary work and review how it changed. How much did it actually encompass what we recommended, and is it complete? Should it have done more?

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you.

I'll ask that of the committee. Mr. Moss said that the complaints are properly addressed. Can we get a thorough explanation of their process and how they're being addressed? I think this is something Madam Gagnon spoke about: Who is applying the sanctions and the follow-up?

I have one more question for Mr. McLaren, and then I'll ask Madam Gagnon one question.

Mr. McLaren, there is some concern, definitely, from where I'm sitting in this chair, about a potential conflict of interest between where some of these sports organizations are getting their funding—whether it's federal or Sport Canada—and the protection of athletes. I'm thinking about little girls.

Do you have any thoughts about what's potentially a conflict of interest in how we get funding, and what's being prioritized when gymnasts arrive on the mat or in their clubs?

[Richard McLaren]

I don't think there's a conflict of interest. The problem is accountability. Monies are provided. Then, how are they used? Are they used effectively, and who is examining the use of the funds? That's the accountability. If they're directed at protecting young athletes, how is that done? Who is checking to see that it has been done and where it needs to be improved or changed if it hasn't been done?

[Bonita Zarrillo, NDP, Port Moody—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you for that. I think that's why we're hearing that we need so much independence.

I wanted to talk to Madam Gall but I'm not going to have an opportunity, I don't think.

I would like to go to Madame Gagnon, just around this accountability and this power imbalance. How can there be an application of consequences for any of these actions? I think that's where it becomes very difficult.