Status of Women Committee on Feb. 15th, 2022

[Jenna Sudds, Liberal, Kanata—Carleton, ON]

Feel free to go ahead, Emmanuella. You've started.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Okay. I don't mind continuing.

I would like to thank the witnesses very much who are with us today to help us with our study.

We are seeing what should be included in the next budget and finding recommendations to make in connection with our study.

I would like to know whether you are aware of the amounts that were already planned in the previous budget, for 2021‑2022. As you said, most of the money you received was paid in the form of pandemic aid. Having said that, do you know what programs already exist for shelters? Do you think that if there is money, it could be invested better elsewhere, if it has not yet been used?

We are trying to find better ways to use the money, so could you recommend programs where this money would be better invested?

[Louise Riendeau]

Yes, what we have heard the most about is the special pandemic funds, but there are certainly also funds at the Department for Women and Gender Equality.

If I had recommendations to make regarding investments, I would say that we need to invest massively in educating the public and young people, to genuinely change minds, so that one day we will get away from violent and non-egalitarian relationships. We also have to educate the public so that the victims, the aggressors, and their family and friends recognize what violence is. When there is no physical violence, sometimes people don't realize that there is spousal violence. And yet there are women who have been killed by their spouse when there had been no request for help to deal with violence.

I think that prevention is the key if we want to get away from the situation we are in.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

I would like to address another problem that I think you alluded to earlier. There are a lot of women who look for help, who get away from the violent situation but go back to live with their partner once that initial assistance ends, because they didn't know where to go or they have financial difficulties.

Do you think it is also important for the government to invest in housing specifically for women who are fleeing violent situations?

[Louise Riendeau]

In our shelters, there are women who have decided to separate, who have started legal proceedings, who would be ready to leave the shelter, but they have to stay there because they are waiting for social housing. That type of housing is too hard to find.

We absolutely have to invest in housing, to be able to offer women options, so they have access to affordable, safe housing.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

In your previous answer, you talked about educating young people, and that is extremely important. I am a former teacher, so I am well aware of how much influence a person has on children when they are in that profession.

Generally, education is under provincial jurisdiction. How can the federal government help the school system in its efforts to prevent this kind of situation in the future?

[Louise Riendeau]

In fact, there are all the programs in the school system, but there also has to be support for the outside resources who can go in and do work in the schools. As we know, teachers are not always comfortable conveying this kind of content. It is better to support the workers in the shelters and rape crisis centres so they can go into the schools and present this content.

There can also be targeted programs that use social networks and will enable us to be in contact with young people otherwise than in school.

So there can be a portion of the funds that goes into the transfers, and would allow us to fund the workers better who have to do this work, and there may also be projects for direct interventions.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you.

Madam Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

You have one minute left.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Right.

Are you familiar with the population staying in the 44 shelters in your network?

Do you think immigrant women have more difficulties? Certainly language and culture can be barriers, in general, when it comes to getting services, breaking down psychological barriers and asking for help. Can you talk to us about that?

I know it's a big question and you have only 30 seconds to answer. Still, what recommendations would you make to help that group of women?

[Chantal Arseneault]

The first difficulty for these women stems from their status. These women often arrive here with the status of spouse or sponsored immigrant, and that is a real barrier.

They also have to have an income. Women who arrive here whose status is not settled, have no income. We talked earlier about financial resources to escape spousal violence. Well, immigrant women are starting from even further back. These are important issues.

Having said that, our member shelters take in all women experiencing spousal violence, without regard for their status.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Excellent. Thank you so much.

We're now going to move over to Christine for six minutes.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses for being here. It is really very interesting to hear them.

To start with, you talked about Bill C‑202 relating to coercive conduct. We will have to discuss that in the House.

What would happen if we did nothing but pass that bill? We can have this sort of magical thinking and believe that merely making the thing a crime will make it disappear and solve the problem. But it takes more than that.

What do we have to do around that? You mentioned housing and training for the professionals who receive the complaints. Are there other things we should be thinking about, when it comes to amending the bill, so that at the end of the day, it has a real effect?

[Louise Riendeau]

Certainly all the professionals, including judges, need to get training. I know there is currently a bill about training for judges on spousal violence. That is essential.

Spousal violence and coercive conduct happen in private. People sometimes have difficulty identifying them. Sometimes, they are associated with gender stereotypes. Earlier, the situation when a man controls the finances was mentioned: is that really a controlling man, or is that normal?

The professionals are not always able to properly understand these situations and don't manage to gather the evidence to submit to a court. They have to be trained so they are able to detect and understand situations of violence and so they are capable of proceeding.

The public also has to be educated, because family and friends are often the first ones in a position to help victims and refer them to resources. They too have to be helped to recognize these behaviours.

Certainly criminalizing these behaviours will not solve everything. We have to make sure that the people who will be providing services are capable of doing so.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

You addressed the issue of funding. I would like you to tell us what that would do for women's shelters, to have recurrent funding and greater foreseeability.

[Louise Riendeau]

The shelters operate 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. We can't decide to close a shelter for a day or a week; otherwise, the lives of women and children would be in danger. There have to be teams in place to support the women. We need the workers' know-how; they have to refer the women for legal resources, housing and immigration.

We need money that allows us to have stable teams, to attract and retain competent staff, and to have enough staff to offer all the services the women and children need. That is why we need stable, recurrent and adequate funding.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

You don't need that only in emergency situations like COVID‑19.

[Louise Riendeau]

Absolutely not.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

In your presentation, you spoke quickly about what happened in Scotland after certain bills were passed.

Can you give us an overview of what has happened at the international level and the impacts it has had? Do you have data that shows an increase in reports to police or an increase in incarcerations, for example?

[Louise Riendeau]

The trailblazers in this are England and, more recently, Scotland.

In England, between the year ending in 2019 and the one ending in 2020, there was a 49% increase in the number of offences associated with coercive conduct. Improvements were made to the law during that period. Almost 25,000 offences associated with coercive conduct were recorded in England.

In Scotland, the law is very recent, dating from 2019. Nonetheless, almost 63,000 incidents of spousal violence were recorded in 2019‑2020. That is an increase of 4%. That's not a major increase, but the law was new. So we see that it has a substantial effect.

For the moment, there has been no effect observed on femicides, but we should remember that the pandemic caused a rise in femicides everywhere in the world, both here and elsewhere. I think more time will be needed to observe differences in this regard.

All in all, there was a definite jump in England at one point. It started slowly and then there was a substantial increase in reports to police.

[Christine Normandin, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I would like to ask you a question that you will undoubtedly not be able to answer in one minute. However, there will be another round.

It is important that the issue not be handled differently by Quebec, which has decided to establish a specialized court for spousal violence, for example, and by the federal government. Can you comment on that?

[Louise Riendeau]

We were very happy with the changes to the Divorce Act, which now includes controlling and coercive behaviours.

Now, we are working hard [Technical difficulty—Editor] to have the same definition used, to guide the courts in the judgments they give.

The specialized court has been created, and all the participants involved in these issues will receive training, be they police, prosecutors or psychosocial professionals. We are therefore very hopeful that we will be better able to take all aspects of these women's experiences into account.

Spousal violence is not limited to a single criminal incident. It often takes place over many years, during which a number of acts are committed and a number of tactics are used. Often, those tactics and those acts are not criminal in themselves and seem trivial, but they instil fear in women and take away their freedom.

We have to be able to take all these facts into account. It all has an impact in our judicial system.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to move over to Leah for our next six minutes.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

Thank you so much to the witnesses for coming today.

We know there's a direct link between access to affordable, accessible housing and rent geared to income, which either allows individuals experiencing violence to leave or prevents them from leaving. We also know there's a direct link between the ability to leave and income. You spoke a little bit about income.

I put forward a bill in the current Parliament to develop a framework in support of a guaranteed livable basic income, without requiring participation in work or employment—I'm thinking specifically of women, who are often responsible for unpaid care work, for example—and not requiring citizenship. For example, refugees, temporary foreign workers and permanent residents would also be eligible for income.

Would putting in place a guaranteed livable basic income assist women to leave violent situations?

[Louise Riendeau]

That will certainly help women. If they knew they would have the resources to support themselves and their children, it would be much easier for women to leave their violent spouse.