Status of Women Committee on March 4th, 2022

[Chief Kimberley Greenwood]

That is correct. Just looking at Clare's Law and some other studies around the world, that is the work we are doing with the association also.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's excellent. Thank you so much.

We're now going to move over, for the next six minutes, to Leah Gazan.

Leah, you have the floor.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

Thank you to the panellists for being here today.

My first question is for the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. We've heard on other panels, of course, that many individuals, women and diverse-gendered individuals, fleeing violence often don't feel safe going to police. I would say that's particularly pronounced for indigenous peoples, who have historically had a very violent colonial history with police, including with the development of police.

As you know, the RCMP was formed to forcibly remove indigenous peoples off their land. That kind of violent colonial relationship, as we saw in Wet'suwet'en territory with RCMP taking down a door with a chainsaw, an axe and a guard dog against two unarmed indigenous women on unceded territories, we see again continue. Eishia Hudson, who was shot by the Winnipeg city police, was 16 years old, and there's currently an inquest happening in my city.

That's why it's not surprising that in the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls there were a number of calls for justice specific to police.

I want to read you call for justice 9.5, specifically related to the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police:

We call upon all police services for the standardization of protocols for policies and practices that ensure that all cases of missing and murdered Indigenous women, girls, and 2SLGBTQQIA people are thoroughly investigated. This includes the following measures:

This measure is specific to the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police:

v. Create a national strategy, through the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, to ensure consistency in reporting mechanisms for reporting missing Indigenous women, girls, and 2SLGBTQQIA people. This could be developed in conjunction with implementation of a national database.

That is a very important one. I'll give you an example and then I'll give you time to respond.

Often it's very common in Winnipeg for indigenous women to go missing. It's like a daily occurrence. We've had cases in Winnipeg where they actually use people's mug shots and put that out in the public, which is terribly dehumanizing, and it speaks to the need to change protocol.

Where is the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police on implementing that call for justice?

[Chief Kimberley Greenwood]

Thank you very much.

With the community safety and well-being committee focusing on this work, along with the victims of crime committee, it is part of our strategies. It is included in the intimate partner violence framework and the sexual violence framework, looking at our responses and how we support those who are vulnerable in our community, such as the indigenous girls, women and children. We're looking at women who are living with disabilities, LGBTQ, two-spirited, sex workers and older women. This is something that is part of what we're looking to do.

We talk about consistent language and consistent tools, whether you are from the Northwest Territories—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

This is my concern. It's my concern with the federal government as well. The national inquiry, of course, came out in 2019. There's no targeted money directly attached to the issue of murdered and missing indigenous women and girls. I asked the minister where they were in implementing the calls for justice, and they said they were working on it.

I'm asking you very straightforwardly: Where are you at in terms of the final implementation of the calls for justice?

[Chief Kimberley Greenwood]

We are working as an association through the multiple levels of government, and we are working very closely with the RCMP on the implementation of not just this area but all of the areas in regard to it. It is about policy development, and it is the responsibility of the services to ensure that they have policies in place, so we do encourage—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

With all due respect, it sounds like it hasn't been implemented. It's still a work-in-progress, which is concerning.

My question is for Mr. Gyovai, which is a pretty interesting name.

You talked about how a lot of time families or kids have difficulty coming forward. They feel shame. Is part of that fear related to worry that kids will be apprehended into child welfare systems? Are they keeping family secrets out of fear of families being separated?

[Michael Jason Gyovai]

From our level of interaction, I can see where that would be, because we have heard that. However, directly from our kids, it's about not wanting to hurt mom and/or dad. In our cases, we do have a variety of children who are dealing with parental alienation issues. They're afraid that, if they say something to dad or to mom, the other parent might get mad at them, and they might get in trouble for that. Directly from what we hear, it's not regarding removal. It's more about hurting their parent they're mostly not with.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We're now going to go on to our second round. We will have five minutes for both the CPC and the Liberals, and two and a half minutes for both the NDP and the Bloc.

I'm going to pass it over to Shelby.

Shelby, you have five minutes.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you, Karen.

Thank you to all the witnesses who are present today.

The first question would be directed more towards, I believe, Ms. Greenwood.

When officers see signs of intimate partner and domestic violence, they see the sexual or physical type of abuse. When there are other types of abuse, like emotional and financial, it's a lot more difficult to see. Is there a process that is followed and is that particular process different for those who are teenagers versus those who are older adults?

[Chief Kimberley Greenwood]

There are many parts to your question there.

When we look at the patterns of intimate partner violence, it encompasses many areas, such as hurt, humiliation, intimidation, exploitation and isolation. These are things police officers are aware of.

We need to ensure that they have more training in this area, because most of our intimate partner violence response traditionally is on the physical piece. If there's one incident, police are called and conduct the investigation. We know this issue is much more complex than this, and we want to ensure that our officers on the front lines have the tools they need to identify, whether we capture it as coercive control.... We heard from the other panel about some financial impacts, isolation and denying women and young people access to information.

Is there a difference between how we respond to intimate partner violence in youth and adults? Yes, there is, because the complexities change. The relationships tend to be quite different. They may not be as long term in youth as we see in adults. A key piece is working collaboratively with other agencies to ensure that officers have all the tools they need, they have the education and they have the awareness so that they make the right decision when one group of officers attends or a next group of officers responds in these complex investigations.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

Further, we can all recognize the format and way in which the intimate partner and domestic violence that happens in Canada is very different. It has evolved in the last 10 years. How are we keeping our force current?

I certainly applaud everyone for what they're able to do. I'm not in that field for a reason, and I give hero cookies to everyone who does that, because it's quite admirable. Is there a way to keep them current, because it's changing so much?

[Chief Kimberley Greenwood]

It is changing so much. When we look at the work that has been done with the national framework specifically for intimate partner violence, we are now looking at adding on to it, whether we're speaking about coercive control or in regard to a trauma-informed approach.

When we look back to the eighties, when I started policing, intimate partner violence was approached very differently. We were able to swing the pendulum and we were able to have mandated charges. Now we know that victims come forward at different times and disclose differently. Our members have to be regularly trained and be aware of these things. At a national level, and in provincial and local areas, there is specific training around intimate partner violence, sexual violence and trauma-informed approaches.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

My next question is directed at Mr. Gyovai. I loved what you said with regard to education, awareness and communication. I think that is key to whatever we're talking about. More specifically, you noted that from 15 to 24 is a really prevalent age. I really think we need to speak their language.

Are we, are you, having communication and advocating where that age group is, for example, on TikTok, Snapchat and Instagram? Are you at that level?

[Michael Jason Gyovai]

We are at that level. We make it an intention to be on those levels. Not only are we helping to provide them with guidance and information through that, we are able to monitor what the traffic is on there. As we see things coming up, we are able to take it back into program and bring up those issues directly to help advocate, but also to help keep the youth informed through our family program. Then we take that and we talk directly to the parents about what issues they need to be aware of, what things kids are looking at today, and we try to get a full and encompassing partnership with the families and the youth.

We know that when the families are involved in what their children are doing, kids are more likely to be safe. Also, when you talk directly to the kids and you give them the respect that they deserve, they are more willing to listen and be co-operative in conversations. Just like us as adults, we don't always like being told what to do. Kids like it even less.

[Shelby Kramp-Neuman, Conservative, Hastings—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to turn it over to Marc Serré.

Marc, you have five minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for their testimony, which is very relevant to our study.

My first question is for Ms. Greenwood or Mr. Lanouette and will be on the definition of “abuse”. There is the Criminal Code, but also all sorts of circumstances where one's hands can be tied.

Can you talk more about this and what the federal government can do about it?

And then can you tell us how this relates to the cultural issue and minority groups so that we can improve our report?

[Chief Francis Lanouette]

First of all, in terms of the definitions themselves, when we talk about coercive control, it encompasses the whole range of abuse that can occur with domestic violence or intimate partner violence. That is the idea behind the notion of coercive control. This notion is broader in scope and encompasses all types of abuse, including financial and psychological abuse.

Today, social networks and our phones all have GPS, and women can be tracked at a distance by spouses inclined to control their actions. This is why we have to talk about coercive control. This is indeed one of the key elements. We need to clearly define coercive control and make it an offence in the Criminal Code.

As for the second part of the question about diversity, I am not sure I fully understood it. Perhaps Ms. Greenwood can answer it.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Ms. Greenwood, do you have anything to add on this subject?

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

When you look at definitions of abuse, your experience is more on the cultural side, the religion side. Is there any recommendation along those lines for minority groups?

[Chief Kimberley Greenwood]

The position that we have taken from the CACP is that we've looked at the World Health Organization when we talk about intimate partner violence. It refers to behaviours of an intimate partner—or ex-partner, that is something we have to keep in mind—that causes physical, sexual or psychological harm, which the director has spoken about. It includes aggression, coercion and controlling behaviour. It is the dynamics between the power and control, and we recognize that the diversity within our country will impact those who feel free to come forward and report intimate partner violence.

We need to ensure that people feel comfortable coming forward to the police and, if they're not comfortable coming forward to the police, that we have third parties and organizations that can help people feel comfortable coming forward, or even using tools where it doesn't have to be the individual—even if it's an app, for example—to come forward and report things such as sexual violence or intimate partner violence. Then at least we have some record of what is occurring so that we can offer services that aren't through the justice system.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

That links in to a question for Mr. Gyovai. When you look on the prevention side or the social media side, the U.S. Congress has had a lot of the social media companies, like TikTok, come to testify at committees, especially about youth or the exploitation of youth.

Do you have a specific recommendation for us, the federal government, to look at the social media aspect, especially related to youth?

[Michael Jason Gyovai]

There definitely needs to be be a deeper look into protection and the way that stats and information are being used by and shared with the children and youth who are on there. I say “children”, because we know that there are kids under the age of 13 who are finding ways onto the social media platforms.

I believe that, across Canada, our police services are doing great work behind the scenes to ensure that predators are not getting access to our children.

We also need to bring greater awareness by educating parents, especially our new immigrant parents who don't have access to these forms of technology, as was mentioned earlier. Technology accessibility, especially in marginalized communities, is very limited due to the cost. There needs to be greater attention put on safeguards that not only kids can understand at their level, but that parents can appreciate and help implement.