Status of Women Committee on March 22nd, 2022

[Maud Pontel]

Indeed, recognition of the concept of coercive control comes with continuing education for police forces, the judiciary, everyone who works in the justice system. We strongly emphasize that the concept of coercive control is inseparable from the definition of domestic violence. This is about power, domination and coercion.

We strongly emphasize that the Canadian Criminal Code should recognize coercive control because it will lead to awareness and training, especially for those working directly with victims.

We also know that second-stage housing workers supporting women must be able to identify coercive control and how it manifests after a separation. If the rest of the justice system can only see part of the concept, then actions to support victims will only have a partial impact.

The concept of coercive control is highly significant to us. Recognizing it would add a tool to complete the suite of measures currently being put in place to establish a safety net around women and children who are victims of domestic violence. Of course, tracking bracelets are also part of this suite of measures that we want to see put in place to make victims safer.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you, ladies.

What I understand is that the Criminal Code should reflect what is being done in Quebec.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's excellent. Thank you so much.

I'm now going to pass it over, for six more minutes, to Leah Gazan.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much, Chair.

The first questions I want to ask are for Madam Nepinak. It's a pleasure to have you here. I know your son, Chief Nepinak, very well, and he always speaks so highly of you and of the work you've done for so long on ending violence against indigenous women and girls.

I want to focus specifically on police. You spoke about a distrust between police and indigenous people, and I think it's for good reason. I'm going to give a couple of examples and I want you to answer how you think we need to mend the relationship. The National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls certainly provided calls for justice.

Eishia Hudson in Winnipeg was shot dead by police. There's currently an inquest. On Wet'suwet'en territory, we saw two RCMP officers with a guard dog, a chainsaw and an axe take down a door on the other side of which were two unarmed indigenous women.

One of the most horrific and disgusting acts of police abuse of power was actually in northern Manitoba, with former RCMP officer Theriault. An article says, “Theriault and another constable had arrested the woman at a party and placed her in a cell until she sobered up. Six hours after she was brought in, Theriault returned to the detachment out of uniform and asked for her to be released into his care”, which he was allowed to do by the supervising officer, who reportedly said, “You arrested her, you can do whatever the f--- you want to do.”

I don't know if I have the quote right, but it's hard to forget. It was something to that effect.

So there are real reasons why there's mistrust. It's not hysteria. It goes beyond stereotypes. This relationship is severely, severely tainted.

What kinds of steps need to be taken to improve the relationship, to ensure that should indigenous women and girls and gender-diverse people have involvement with police, not only will the relationship be amended but their safety will be ensured?

[Josie Nepinak]

The relationship we currently have with the police is severely fractured, and the atrocities that are happening to indigenous women within police services across the country are, in my opinion, an epidemic requiring immediate attention from the policy-makers and the legislators so that those actions are stopped immediately.

I think police services in this country have made indigenous women disposable. The very fact that the police have it in their power to take the lives of indigenous women and young indigenous girls as well.... We have heard of police officers raping and impregnating young indigenous women, and we've heard stories at the national inquiry of indigenous women being stopped on the highway and raped by police officers.

In my opinion this system needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from the bottom up, so that safe spaces for indigenous women are built in.

There is a model in, I believe, South America in which there are police stations run by police women only. These police stations don't look like police offices. They look like daycare centres. You walk in and the office is occupied by police officers, women who are dressed in street clothing, but there is a play area as well for children to be looked after and nurtured while the woman is in a safe place to tell her story about an incident of violence that happened to her.

We need to change the way we're thinking about policing and indigenous people in this country. The genocide must stop. You cannot imagine the colonial violence perpetuated by police in this country unless you have experienced it. Most folks who have privilege cannot fathom that this actually happens in the communities. As a child, I had to run away from police officers because they were going to take us, and they became known as “those who take us away”. That is certainly still the case today, almost 60 years from the day I first went into the residential school, so we must do this in a better way. As I say, let's dismantle and let's build from the ground up—

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

In Winnipeg, as you know—I'm going to brag—we have Bear Clan Patrol and Mama Bear Clan patrol, which are really community volunteer street patrols that monitor the community, get to know the community and make sure that we look after each other as a community. Do you think those kinds of community-led and community-driven safety patrols are a good alternative to ensure that indigenous women and girls are safe?

[Josie Nepinak]

Yes. Absolutely. In Calgary we have the Bear Clan. We have another group who've called themselves Crazy Indians. When there is an emergency in the community, as we had a few weeks ago with the death of a young boy, these folks come out to be the firekeepers. As we know, we have to have the four-day fire when there is a death. They volunteer their time. They volunteer resources.

Most of these groups are doing this work without any resources at all. They're volunteering their time. Many of them work during the day and then give their time at night to ensure that people are safe. We need to look at community-based solutions and we need to go back to the indigenous, as the experts of our communities, to develop those solutions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's perfect. Thank you very much.

We're now into our second round. We're getting very, very tight on time. It will be three minutes, three minutes, one minute and one minute.

Shelby and Eric, you have three minutes.

[Eric Melillo, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have one question, and then I'll leave the rest of the time for my colleague Shelby.

To our friends from B.C., whoever would like to answer the question, I'm curious about Be More Than a Bystander. I'm wondering if there are any measurable benchmarks or ways of monitoring the success and the areas of improvement in the program. Perhaps you could talk about that. If you do have those measures that you're tracking, I would ask you to submit them to the committee after the meeting.

[Ninu Kang]

We do ongoing evaluations and feedback for the programs we deliver. In our partnership with the BC Lions, again, ongoing communication happens between us. We're using a bit of a continuous improvement methodology. We don't have a formal evaluation of this program that we could provide to the committee, but we can certainly provide data with regard to what we've compiled over the last 11 years. Jamie and I are happy to put our heads together and get something over to you on that.

One thing I want to say is that the methodology we use is actually very simple. It's a very simple message that we deliver to young boys and girls in school. One of the key components is to unveil masculinity. It's to talk to young boys about the messages they're receiving about being a boy and what it means, right from birth onwards to when they're in school with the positioning and the posturing that boys do as a result of all the messages we hear, including now all the digital media messages, which we've talked a lot about.

The second component of this program is to actually give them some practical tools. We've used videos to demonstrate and then to pose questions to young people: What would you do in this scenario? In this particular incident, how would you be more than a bystander? What are some of the verbal and non-verbal things you can say or do to intervene and interrupt the violence?

Again, I just want to stress that it's such a simple yet powerful methodology and approach that we're using, which is why it's won awards internationally and been recognized locally. As Jamie said, we've taken it nationally, to the CFL, and we're working with other corporates and unions on taking it there. That's the power of this program.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's awesome. Thank you so much.

Emmanuella, we will go to you for the next three minutes.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to thank all of our witnesses, but specifically Ms. Kang and Mr. Taras. My questions are going to be for you.

In every single meeting of this committee on this particular study, we hear a lot of testimony about how crappy this world is. I'm a huge fan of the work you are doing. I'm a former high school teacher. I've worked most of my working life with children. The reason is that I see them as beacons of hope who can still be shaped and influenced in the right way.

I say a big “thank you” and “congratulations” for what you guys have been doing. A big part of the reason it's been working is that you're sending in successful football players to talk to these kids. They see them as role models. We know that role models play a huge role in how people see themselves as they grow up.

You mentioned that men and boys are supposed to be part of the solution. I'm really happy that we've figured out a way to get boys involved.

Do you have any suggestions for how we can get men who are not necessarily at that early stage of learning to buy in to the idea that they need to be not just bystanders, but also part of the solution?

[Ninu Kang]

Jamie, maybe you can speak to the [Inaudible—Editor] program.

[Jamie Taras]

It's one of the things we do during every presentation, including school presentations and presentations within the communities. We challenge men and boys to get involved as advocates and allies with our sisters. It's in the sense that this isn't a women's issue; it's a men's issue, because it's men who are, unfortunately, committing most of these violent crimes. That is a core part of all of the messages that we give the kids and adults that we speak to.

That's why I'm involved. When I heard that one in three women are going to be sexually assaulted in this beautiful and wonderful country, I was disgusted. That's what drove me to get involved, to lend my voice alongside my sisters and to speak up against gender-based violence.

That's the power in men talking to other men. That's what we try to do.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much for those answers.

It's also important to focus on the negative effects of toxic masculinity on men, the fact that they can't necessarily express their emotions in the same way without being judged, and the fact that the suicide rate is higher among men. There is definitely a big benefit to our talking about gender in this open way and talking about these different stereotypes.

Thank you again for the work that you're doing, and thanks again to all the witnesses.

I won't take up too much time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Thank you so much.

We're now going to pass it over to Andréanne for one minute.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

First of all, Ms. Lemeltier and Ms. Pontel, thank you for your testimony. I will give you the last word, as there is less than a minute left.

According to Statistics Canada, nearly half of women who experienced intimate partner violence, 43%, reported feeling controlled or trapped by their intimate partner.

In conclusion, isn't this a sign that something needs to be done about this issue, especially since these types of coercive control are often precursors to physical violence?

[Sabrina Lemeltier]

Yes, there is no doubt that the figures you have just mentioned are very important and that they should be reflected in the services offered to women. Currently, in Quebec, there are not enough resources to meet the level of demand. For example, a city like Montreal refuses 75% of the requests from women who want to access a second-stage shelter.

There is a narrative that encourages women to seek help and for those around them to speak out, but at the same time, when they ask for services, there is no room.

When we start thinking about policy, it's important to think about the continuum, from disclosure to getting services to returning to the community. I would say it even extends to social housing. Currently, there is not enough second-stage housing, which means we can't house everyone.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

That's excellent. Thank you very much—

[Sabrina Lemeltier]

Consequently, they can't be decently housed at a cost within their means.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

I'm sorry about that. Thank you very much.

We have only a minute left, and we're going to pass it over to Leah Gazan.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

Thank you so much.

Madam Nepinak, you spoke about your programs that had taken intergenerational families. Can you explain why that's particularly important for indigenous people?

[Josie Nepinak]

Quite often, as we know in indigenous communities there are multiple families living together, and that is often the preferred way. It is how I grew up as well, with my great-grandmother, my grandmother and then me, because my mother had to go out to work cleaning houses, etc. It's having that sense of belonging and that sense of community and that nurturing. It's carrying on some of the traditional teachings, such as the language, because that's a huge piece.

There are also the other pieces around some of the ceremonial work that needed to be done around the household and community, and that was by looking after family. We truly had that extended family, because we had other family members in the community who we quite often brought into the house to be part of the household. We had crisis intervention as well in the homes, when someone was in trouble.

We had all those traditional methods, and I believe we need to revisit some of that wisdom and go back to some of that practice. It is extremely important for grandchildren to have their grandmothers present with them, as well as their aunties.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Karen Vecchio]

Absolutely. Thank you so much.

I think we saw there, with Ms. Pontel's little daughter coming over, why we need to do such important work like this.

On behalf of the committee, I would really like to thank Sabrina, Maud, Josie, Jamie and Ninu for being part of this great discussion today. If you could log off, that would be fantastic. I really appreciate your coming and providing your testimony.

In seconds, once everybody is logged off, we will be going through some committee business.

I'm seeing all the great faces on here, so fantastic.

I have advised some of the vice-chairs on this. We want to talk about destroying confidential documents. This is something I brought up to other people, and I'm looking to see if somebody is willing to move a motion on destroying these documents.

Leah, would you like....? Go ahead.

[Leah Gazan, NDP, Winnipeg Centre, MB]

I'm sorry. It's been a long day.