Evidence of meeting #39 for Status of Women in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was housing.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Silverstone  Chief Executive Officer, Sagesse Domestic Violence Prevention Society
Hull-Jacquin  Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Shelter Movers
Dugal  Executive Director, Women's Shelters Canada

Connie Cody Conservative Cambridge, ON

Victims of human trafficking often require unique supports as well to help them recover from the deep trauma and extreme abuse they experienced.

Would you agree that women entering the shelter system who have been trafficked require unique assistance, support and safe spaces to heal and recover? Do you think the current shelter system provides this support?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Sagesse Domestic Violence Prevention Society

Andrea Silverstone

I'm so glad you asked this question. This was the work of my master's degree.

I submitted a position paper to the federal ombudsman for victims of crime specifically on this issue. It is available on their website.

The answer is 100% that trafficking victims need very specialized housing supports. Generally speaking, the housing supports that they require are at minimum for two years, which is very different from what women who are fleeing violence require. They have experienced multiple levels of coercive control. Usually there are histories of childhood abuse, domestic violence, organized crime and gangs. As a result, those trafficking victims require very specialized supports. There are some examples of best practices in Canada that are highlighted in the study that I did for the federal ombudsman for victims of crime.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Connie Cody Conservative Cambridge, ON

I'm hearing from a lot of women in my community. They're saying that they would rather live in their cars than in the current shelter system. They've told me directly that the violence and active drug use that goes on within the shelter system deters them from going to these shelters. This is particularly difficult for women with children who don't want to expose their kids to unsafe environments and for vulnerable seniors.

In your experience, have you seen active drug use and violence within shelters as a barrier for women in these situations?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Sagesse Domestic Violence Prevention Society

Andrea Silverstone

The answer is yes, depending on the shelter.

There are women's shelters, and I would suggest that, for the most part, women fleeing violence don't experience that in those shelters. Those aren't the reports that we're hearing.

Women often find themselves in homeless shelters because they are fleeing violence and have housing issues. Yes, those don't feel safe for women. They don't feel safe for people with children.

I would suggest that we have not just a sheltering issue generally but also an issue of safety in shelters that are dedicated for homelessness. These are not shelters that are dedicated for women fleeing violence, but shelters that are dedicated for homelessness, which is often where women fleeing violence end up because the women's shelters are full.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Connie Cody Conservative Cambridge, ON

Studies are showing that when a woman's shelter space is revealed to her intimate partner abuser, particularly when that person has been let out on bail, she begins to feel extremely vulnerable and compromised. The safety of all other women in the shelter may also be put at risk if the offender is aware of the location of the victim.

Is our current justice system, which releases violent offenders on bail, compromising women's safety within shelter spaces across Canada?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Sagesse Domestic Violence Prevention Society

Andrea Silverstone

My answer is that I would like to see some bail reform. I would like to see us be stronger in terms of holding perpetrators accountable, especially those who are at risk of reoffending or who have shown themselves to be dangerous. The answer is that we could definitely provide greater supports and greater checks and balances within our system to make sure that women are safer.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Connie Cody Conservative Cambridge, ON

Would you say that bad Liberal policies over the last 10 years are to blame for all of this?

11:20 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Sagesse Domestic Violence Prevention Society

Andrea Silverstone

As someone who is not an expert in this area, I couldn't say to whom to attribute the blame, where it belongs, but I would say that what I would like to see is bail reform. As well, I would like to see that when bail is being offered to perpetrators who are at risk of violent reoffence, that risk is noted and recognized.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dominique Vien

Those were your final remarks.

Thank you very much, Ms. Cody.

Ms. Gladu, you have the floor for six minutes.

Marilyn Gladu Liberal Sarnia—Lambton—Bkejwanong, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome to all of the witnesses. Thank you so much for being here.

Our government is doing a renewal of the national housing strategy, looking for consultations on which programs are working well and which ones we should be adding. I'm very interested to talk about the housing issue and what the government should be doing.

I'll start with you, Ms. Silverstone, because you talked about rapid rehousing. Could you give me an idea of whether there is a range of different kinds of housing that you would recommend, or do you have any suggestions in that area?

11:25 a.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Sagesse Domestic Violence Prevention Society

Andrea Silverstone

I very much like what the individual from Shelter Movers said about following the survivor, so I think we need to have survivor-centred solutions. Rapid rehousing will look different for different survivors, based on the communities they live in, the level of risk they have, and the level of capacity and supports they have.

An example I might give you is a woman of affluence who doesn't have access to her assets right now but at some point will have access to her assets. Rapid rehousing for her might mean that she needs just three to six months of support or even mortgage support during that period of time because she will have stability again financially. For someone who is not in that position, rapid rehousing might look like a move into some sort of long-term housing in community or even longer-term transitional housing in community. Whatever it is, it doesn't have to be an emergency shelter with the whole weight of that system and the expense of that system per se.

I also think it's important that there is funding for housing for survivors that doesn't force them into one part of the system or the other but that recognizes their unique needs.

Marilyn Gladu Liberal Sarnia—Lambton—Bkejwanong, ON

That's excellent.

I have the same question for you, Mr. Hull-Jacquin.

11:25 a.m.

Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Shelter Movers

Marc Hull-Jacquin

Thank you.

I concur with Ms. Silverstone.

I think our primary goal is to listen to survivors and to focus on their priorities. A system that simplifies the experience of survivors loses the nuance of the threats they're facing and the complexity of their decisions. A housing system that identifies subgroups in a particular community, identifies the services available to those subgroups and then identifies the gap—housing would be one of them in most communities—is the way to start the story with survivors' needs and then respond with policy and funding.

Marilyn Gladu Liberal Sarnia—Lambton—Bkejwanong, ON

That's excellent.

Ms. Dugal, you had six recommendations. Are they in the report that you referenced? If not, I would ask you to send them to the clerk.

I have the same question for you: In terms of what the government should be doing in the national housing strategy, what would you recommend?

11:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Women's Shelters Canada

Anuradha Dugal

Yes, I will send the recommendations in the report.

One I want to mention particularly is the importance of portable housing benefits for women and that those be available immediately. There shouldn't be a wait of a certain period of time that somebody has been named homeless before that person can get those benefits. There are a lot of delays in the system with regard to when benefits can be accessed, and then there is a lot of red tape about who can get them, when and for how long. I agree that the immediate need should be met immediately.

With regard to pathways to ownership, not everybody can own property, but the idea is that poverty and intergenerational poverty will lead to future experiences of violence. It's not just the trauma of the existing violence in a family that leads to that intergenerational impact; it's also long-term poverty. Pathways to ownership for small, accessible homes in safe areas are also essential for survivors so that they can make their own decisions.

Shelters don't offer survivors a lot of autonomy. What we're trying to do is build autonomy, independence and self-determination. That is what more housing options will allow survivors.

Marilyn Gladu Liberal Sarnia—Lambton—Bkejwanong, ON

My next question has to do with the age demographic that we're seeing in the shelter system. Does anyone have any data on what percentage of people are seniors? What percentage are young women? Do we have any data on that?

Go ahead, Ms. Dugal.

11:25 a.m.

Executive Director, Women's Shelters Canada

Anuradha Dugal

Generally, the people who are in shelters are those who are younger, partially because accepting a family into a violence against women shelter is often the priority. The most extreme forms of violence are often experienced by younger women.

Also, there are existing policies that make it very hard for single women, and older women are generally single. They make it very hard for an older woman to find a space in a shelter. There are very limited spaces for older women in shelters. Not to mention that communal living for an older woman is also a very hard situation for her to be in after she's been living by herself and has been autonomous for a very long time.

Marilyn Gladu Liberal Sarnia—Lambton—Bkejwanong, ON

Thank you.

There's one quick question from my colleague, Ms. Church.

Leslie Church Liberal Toronto—St. Paul's, ON

Thank you.

It's a pleasure to be here subbing in today, Madam Chair.

What a great discussion.

My question is for Mr. Hull-Jacquin. The costs of fleeing violence are very real. You've illustrated that moving, storage, upfront relocation costs and being back in an unsafe environment are huge concerns. Your work seems to really fill this gap. How can government better recognize these costs?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dominique Vien

Mrs. Church, unfortunately I must interrupt you. It's not very nice, but we'll surely have time to get back to it. I'm sorry.

Ms. Larouche, you have the floor for six minutes.

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

First, I'd like to thank all the witnesses. I'm taking a lot of notes. This is a crucial and significant issue.

As I said yesterday before the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities, the housing issue was the focus of my two-week parliamentary break. So I think we have something very important to study.

Mr. Hull‑Jacquin, my question is related to my colleague Mrs. Church's question. Your organization often supports women in highly vulnerable situations. What is the main reason women stay in this cycle of violence? What are the main practical obstacles they face? Is it the fear of homelessness, poverty, immigration or a lack of housing?

11:30 a.m.

Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Shelter Movers

Marc Hull-Jacquin

Thank you, Ms. Larouche. I'll answer in English, because I'm more comfortable in English.

Motivations for survivors to flee abusive relationships are as varied and nuanced as the dynamic or the relationship in which they find themselves. Intersecting demographic components of someone's identity—indigenous women, aged women, women with young children, newcomers to Canada, 2SLGBTQIA and any income level that might overlap on that—will influence the decision that the survivor will make in terms of staying or leaving.

We have served women in homes I will never be able to afford in the nicest neighbourhoods in Canada, we have helped women and children leave buildings I would not qualify as a home or physical building, and we have seen everything in between.

A system that responds and listens to survivors about what they need and when they need it will be the most effective and the most cost-effective.

In terms of the barriers that our organization faces in order to serve more families, it's quite simple. Our job is to listen to survivors and operate where they need us. Shelter Movers currently operates in seven major cities. We move almost 200 families a month. The reason we do this is that organizations like shelters, transition homes, sexual assault centres, victim services and police put their trust in our organization and the 1,000 volunteers who move these families. We do that with compassion. We do that in a survivor-centred way. The barriers to leaving require conversations with survivors and require listening and waiting for their direction. Survivors are the tellers of their own stories, and they're the experts in their experience. The system that reflects that will meet their needs much more efficiently than any presumption we make about their situation.

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

I have one last question for you. Try to keep your answer brief.

Human trafficking came up recently. Are traditional resources suited to women who are victims of sexual exploitation or trafficking?

We talked about certain traumas making interventions more complicated. What changes would be necessary?

11:30 a.m.

Founder and Chief Executive Officer, Shelter Movers

Marc Hull-Jacquin

Survivors of sexual assault have experienced a very unique type of violence. As one of the witnesses indicated, there are multiple intersecting layers of oppression, organized crime and potential acts of violence by family members, people close to them or intimate partners. An organization like Shelter Movers does not take into account the type of crime survivors have experienced. Our job is to acknowledge that they're experiencing abuse and get them out of the home as quickly and efficiently as possible.

As I mentioned in my opening statement, I do believe that a system that oversimplifies the experience of survivors will cost our taxpayers more and will serve survivors less well. A system that is shelter-centred as opposed to survivor-centred will also put an undue burden on shelters and transition homes, which are expected to do everything for survivors as best they can. An investment in the survivors' service ecosystem, acknowledging the 30-plus organizations that operate in many communities, is a more cost-effective and more specialized way of responding to the nuanced needs of survivors.

Andréanne Larouche Bloc Shefford, QC

Thank you very much.

Ms. Silverstone, my colleagues and I have already addressed the issue of funding for organizations. Community organizations are calling for more stable funding and fewer one-off programs. Which funding model would be most useful to ensure the sustainability of services?