Evidence of meeting #47 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was trains.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
George Kosinski
Anyway, when this accident happened in Trail, that actually made me wonder whether CP's commitment to safety is any greater than that of the CN management, because--
4:30 p.m.
George Kosinski
Yes. If that train could have been kept under control, if the locomotive had been equipped with dynamic brakes, not only would it have prevented the derailment, it would have saved somebody's life.
I haven't yet been able to establish whether that locomotive did or did not have dynamic brakes. But if it did not, that definitely seems to display a reckless disregard for safety on the part of management.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
4:30 p.m.
Representative of Local 2004, Union, United Steelworkers
Not about CP. It was very similar when we shared the same union, but now we don't. I'm not very familiar with CP anymore.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
4:30 p.m.
MLA, Vancouver-Kensington, Legislative Assembly of B.C., As an Individual
I can maybe add one small element with respect to your question.
I hold no particular beef with CN or CP, but over the last two years I have had the experience of having a look at the reports, the press releases, the statements made by both companies after there had been incidents. It's an instructive exercise, and I encourage members of the committee to do that. They're quite different. There's quite a different attitude and a different tone expressed in those reports, those press releases, and in the information that comes from the companies.
My experience--and again, I haven't done a review of all of them, but I've looked at a number of them--is that the CP ones are much more engaged with the community and much less defensive; there's less of simply saying it's somebody else's fault. It's not a scientific review, but I have seen it in a number of the issues in B.C.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
I have to interrupt you, because I have one last question.
There was an exchange between Mr. Chudnovsky and Mr. Julian about what's happening in B.C. The testimony we had from Mr. Rhodes, and Mr. Holliday as well, both of whom I believe are employees of CN, indicated that the toughest standards are actually in British Columbia. They're provincial standards. Those standards used to apply to B.C. Rail before it was taken over by CN. They were decrying the fact that B.C. Rail no longer had to comply with the standards in British Columbia.
Am I correct in understanding that?
4:35 p.m.
MLA, Vancouver-Kensington, Legislative Assembly of B.C., As an Individual
Yes.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Ed Fast Conservative Abbotsford, BC
And yet I heard you complain about what's going on in British Columbia and that there was something untoward there. I think we can at least look to British Columbia as an example of a set of standards that perhaps could be emulated across the country to improve the level of safety in the industry.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Peter, on occasion people have been tempted to accuse you of having talent, but I don't think you have enough to replace Mr. Volpe yet, so please allow Mr. Volpe to do it himself.
All kidding aside, there are no politics here.
I was quite intrigued by your presentation, Mr. Chudnovsky, and those of the others as well.
Last week when we had CN here, they made two observations that I'd like you to comment on. One was that weather factors have contributed to what appears to be an increased number of accidents. The second was that the culture of safety had not yet permeated the employees in the organization to the extent that CN had been attempting to put in place. I hope I'm not misrepresenting their case, but it seemed to me that those were two themes that came out of the explanations.
Now, I'm one for having discussions on an ideological basis, but I don't think that has a place here. But you appeared to come forward with a discussion about B.C. Rail having, with its employees and safety management practices, a standard that is far superior to that of CN. I find myself a bit like the ball that's being batted on either side of the net.
Would you care to comment on that? Give me an indication as to whether I'm off track--pardon the pun--in thinking in terms of getting standards that appear to be rather objective and making a decision on that basis, or should I just weigh what you say and what CN said as being two parts of an ideological discussion?
4:35 p.m.
MLA, Vancouver-Kensington, Legislative Assembly of B.C., As an Individual
Let me deal with the second question first.
What I can tell you is that since the Cheakamus accident, which is, what, almost two years ago, dozens and dozens of people who work on the rail--the former B.C. Rail line, the current CN line--have contacted me. I didn't go out to find them; they contacted me, because I'm the transportation critic in the province. Without exception, their view is that safety standards have suffered since CN took over. That's my report to you. We can itemize that if it's helpful to you.
CN clearly takes a different view.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Did any of those people suggest to you that weather conditions--and I'm not being trite here--are a major factor in safety on those lines?
If you can't answer that, maybe Mr. Cotie might be able to.
4:35 p.m.
MLA, Vancouver-Kensington, Legislative Assembly of B.C., As an Individual
No, none of them did. The one issue with respect to weather that was brought to my attention was with respect to patrol cars. Mr. Rhodes talked to you about that. These gentlemen talked to you about that.
I have heard, independently of all of that, from a number of people who work for CN and/or worked for B.C. Rail that the number of and frequency of the use of patrols going ahead of the locomotive during bad weather has decreased. That, I can tell you, has been reported to me.
If I may make one more general proposition to you, it's this. We need to be understanding of the fact that railroading is a difficult operation to do, and we do need to be understanding of the fact that bad weather is a contributing factor to problems that people have in running the railways. But I hope that CN isn't telling us that if there's bad weather, it's okay to have accidents.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
I'm not sure that's what they're saying.
My staff took the trouble of tracking weather conditions over the course of the previous 10 years, when they heard that. They said, “Mr. Volpe, maybe you'd better understand the weather.” So I'm looking at their very hard work and I'm at a little bit of a loss to understand why somebody would make that observation, given the weather fluctuations or lack thereof in the last 10 years. I'm just wondering whether we missed something, or whether you have a different view, that weather, as I asked of CN, is a factor that a proper management system would take into consideration and apply the appropriate techniques or technology to?
Would that be your experience, Mr. Cotie?
4:40 p.m.
Representative of Local 2004, Union, United Steelworkers
Again, with weather, I don't operate trains and am not very familiar with this. As an observer, I know that in extreme weather conditions, at minus 30 degrees, different rules apply. Railways can't operate the same length and weight of trains at minus 30 or 40 degrees as they can in better conditions, because of their air system. It's the same as at plus 30 or 40 degrees Celsius--that's the rail temperature. It has a tendency to kink. So I believe there are rules that apply there for trains. There may even be a reduction, because out of the blue you can have rail kinks and things like that in extreme weather one way or the other, and you have to consider air systems.
But I don't operate trains, so I'm not an expert on that.
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My first question is to Mr. Cotie. Could you please tell us what you do exactly at CN Rail?
4:40 p.m.
Representative of Local 2004, Union, United Steelworkers
I'm a health and safety coordinator. I represent the union. It's a joint effort, but my salary is paid for by CN Rail. I act as a liaison and I sit on the health and safety policy committee that I was mentioning, where I'm not getting the issues because they're getting caught in the mud in the middle.
That's my position.
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Carrier Bloc Alfred-Pellan, QC
So you are not involved in train operations, as a superintendent or a supervisor would. You sit on a health and safety committee.
