Evidence of meeting #54 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vote.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
Mr. Chairman, did you actually say, if it had been that this is to create, you would have ruled that out of order?
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
What I suggested was that if in any way it proposed a new mandate entailing new spending, I would rule it out of order. The question around “establish a program” would suggest a new program.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
Mauril Bélanger Liberal Ottawa—Vanier, ON
I have a difficulty with that, Mr. Chairman. I'm not going to belabour the point, but I need to flag it because I'm not sure that you're correct. I understand that in the private members' business range that is indeed the case, but this is not private members' business; this is government legislation, and the committee has the authority to propose and adopt amendments to it.
So I'm flagging this and I'll do some homework if need be, but I think it needs to be flagged. I believe there may be a mistake there.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Thank you, duly noted.
(Clause 4 as amended agreed to)
(Clauses 5 to 7 inclusive agreed to)
On clause 8)
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
We have BQ-9, page 19. Again, I will send out some concerns in regard to admissibility, but I would like Mr. Laframboise to present it. And for the record, BQ-9 and LIB-4 are identical.
Mr. Laframboise.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Thank you very much.
I move that Bill C-6, in Clause 8, be amended by adding after line 21 on page 7 the following:(c.1) safety management systems and programs that provide for(i) the appointment of an executive(A) responsible for operations and activities authorized under a certificate—issued pursuant to a regulation made under this Act—that authorizes the holder of the certificate to operate an air traffic control unit or a flight service station, and(B) accountable for the extent to which the requirements of the applicable safety management systems or programs have been met,(ii) the implementation, as a result of any risk management analysis, of the remedial action required to maintain the highest level of safety,(iii) continuous monitoring and regular assessment of the level of safety achieved, and(iv) the involvement of employees and their bargaining agents in the development and implementation of the applicable safety management system or program;
We think the addition of these provisions would help raise the highest standards of safety to better define the safety management systems and programs.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP Burnaby—New Westminster, BC
Mr. Chairman, I very much like the amendment put forward by the Bloc Québécois and the one put forward by the Liberal Party, but since there are differences among the amendments put forward by the Bloc, the Liberals and the NDP, I would suggest that we take the time to harmonize all this before we study amendment BQ-9. I think it would probably be easier to do that before the next committee meeting, rather then during this meeting. It could take quite some time to sort out all the minor differences.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
I think I'm going to deal with this as we go through it. I think we've certainly had this out long enough for people to review it.
I do want to ask Mr. Reinhardt, in regard to the proposal, the appointment of an executive, is that currently being done or is that currently part of the mandate?
4:30 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
We currently have authority under the current legislation, and it's done in the CARs, in the Canadian aviation regulations, for those governed by safety management systems now.
The reason we put those provisions at the location we did, under proposed section 5.39, later on was to more or less introduce the protection provisions. It was crafted this way for that reason. To bring this over into proposed section 4.9 makes it a bit confusing.
I also notice that there are three amendments that are quite similar. There's L-4 and there's NDP-3.3. I think they should all be looked at, at the same time, and we should keep in consideration the fact that the location in the piece of legislation is important.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Quite frankly, it's already in the regulations from review—1.06, 1.01, 1.02, 1.03, 1.04—and also in proposed section 5.39 in the legislation itself. It just seems appropriate in this case to allow some flexibility in the regulations, compared to the—If we have to readdress some of these issues, it's going to take two to three years to get it through in legislation. I think they're better addressed in regulations.
My understanding is that they already are, and indeed, I understand further that some regulations are on the way now to being amended. I think they were last published in 2005, and there are some more coming forward right now.
4:30 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
There are NPAs, notices of proposed amendments, providing for consultation between employers and employees in the development of any new SMS regulations. It's in the mill now, it's coming.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Do you mean that if these amendments were not implemented, there are regulations on this supervision in any case?
4:35 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
There are regulations in place at the moment, Mr. Laframboise. I believe members were given a package containing the Canadian Aviation Regulations. They referred to safety management systems and give you the basic information about the provisions that are already in place. There was also notice of a draft amendment which would provide for consultation between the employees and employers on the safety management system within the regulations, but that has not yet been passed.
4:35 p.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
I fail to see why you are against including this in the bill. Rather than fighting with all of us, why would we not try to work together? We could change our wording to one you find acceptable. We really want this to come into effect as soon as the act is implemented. I do not want you to wait, I don't want the enforcement of your regulations to be delayed and things to drag on for ever, even though that is the way you often work. Let's take advantage of the opportunity to settle some of these issues.
There is a good reason for including this in paragraph (c.1). It follows paragraph (c), and paragraph 4.9(c) talks about the design, installation, inspection, maintenance and approval of facilities, for example. So at this point we would talk about the appointment of an executive and we would describe this person's responsibilities. I think this is a good place to include this.
If you have to include similar provisions in the regulations in any case, why not work with us? Then we would have a standard, and it would be included in the bill now. It would be clear, and the matter would be settled. In addition, all the parties would be aware of this.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Mr. Reinhardt, you mentioned that what Monsieur Laframboise is proposing is covered off under another section?
4:35 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
That's correct. It's covered partly under proposed section 5.39 and partly under the existing Canadian aviation regulations. Also, the consultation, the provision dealing with
"...the involvement of employees and their bargaining agents in the development and implementation of the applicable safety management system or program;"
is already covered in a notice of proposed amendment to the CARs, as well. This is part of the package we had distributed to you on Monday, I believe.
4:35 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
No, it was apart from that.
4:35 p.m.
Director, Regulatory Services, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
It was a package that had on its cover page “Existing Regulations and New Regulatory Proposals on Safety Management Systems”.