Transport Committee on Oct. 19th, 2009

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Monsieur Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon, Ms. How. Good afternoon, Mr. McDonnell.

Earlier, I put a question to the minister concerning the ultimate Gatineau Park management priority. We know that where national parks are concerned, the top management priority issue is the ecological, environmental matter. However, currently, that is not the case for Gatineau Park.

How could you help us see to it that, through an amendment, that top management priority also applies to Gatineau Park, just as it does in the case of a national park?

[John McDonnell]

We do not see why that would not be possible. It is quite simple, all we have to do is take the National Parks Act and copy a relevant part of it into Bill C-37. Gatineau Park has a biodiversity that is just as important, if not more so, as the biodiversity we find in certain national parks. We believe that priority should be given to the protection of ecological integrity above everything.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

We are in agreement but we have to manage to convince our friends on the government side in order to obtain the necessary amendments.

There is also the project to get rid of excess lands. This was in a directive from Treasury Board in 1988 and in 2008. What may be deemed excessive, when we know that all of Gatineau Park is a part of all of the national interest land mass? There is no exception to that. That is the case for all of the park and even everything that falls under the National Capital Commission.

How do you feel about that approach that led to this guideline from Treasury Board? It is a guideline, and perhaps this will not be done, but as long as the guideline exists, it could happen and we know what would then subsequently happen. The park may be changed. If this does not affect the land, it could apply to heritage buildings. We are a young region, especially on the Quebec Outaouais side. There are not many, and so these changes would be proportionally greater in number.

How do you feel about that?

[John McDonnell]

Our opinion is that the NCC should not be allowed to divest lands that are a part of the national interest land mass, quite simply.

We feel that Gatineau Park is already too small for the riches contained in that environment to be well protected. We have approached the NCC on a few occasions to talk about lands that were available outside the park for the purpose of establishing a buffer zone or annexing those lands to the park itself.

However, we were told that that was not a part of the current mandate. Consequently, we believe that the NCC should not be allowed to do that.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

It would be ill-advised for Treasury Board to do that. I think you agree.

The matter of integrating the territory is also very important. I'm talking about the Quebec side of the river because I am the member for Gatineau, but we can do the same thing on the Ontario side along the Ottawa River where there are NCC lands.

Would you agree to making approval by the Quebec or Ontario government mandatory before anyone can change the boundaries of Gatineau Park or the Ontario Greenbelt or any other NCC lands?

[John McDonnell]

We think that that is a good idea. We are currently working on the matter of protected areas in Quebec. Quebec is working hard to create new protected areas. We also believe that there should be links among these protected areas in order to allow species to move about. We think it is very important for both levels of government to cooperate, especially on Gatineau Park, because as I said earlier, we think that the park is already too small.

The same thing applies to Ontario. We are also working there to protect the greenbelt. There are some fairly interesting lands outside the greenbelt. These links can be made. I'm talking about Marlborough Forest or Larose Forest. We think that the NCC should not only work with the provinces, but also with the municipalities.

In Gatineau Park the municipality of Chelsea plays an important role in municipal zoning, especially in the Meech Lake area where new homes have been built recently. We shared our fears with the NCC concerning certain development projects. We were told that nothing could be done because the municipality gave out the permits for residential development. We think that we should really all concert our efforts and all work together for the good of Gatineau Park.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests, not only for your presentation today but for the work you've done to advance the cause of protecting Gatineau Park and a lot of our habitat around this area and, indeed, throughout the country. And thank you to the others who have worked on this file. It has been an enormous help to those of us who are in Parliament.

For those who don't know the key issues, the document you have brought today is a great primer. Thank you. I see it usually costs two bucks and you didn't charge us anything, so maybe people can donate to CPAWS later.

[Muriel How]

Thank you.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I think your amendments are really practical, and I have similar amendments to bring forward myself.

The question I have is that when you first looked at the bill and you tried to parse out...because as I mentioned to the minister, there is a lot in this bill. There are governance issues and there is Gatineau Park, and your primary focus, as in your presentation today, is Gatineau Park. What I got from your presentation is that the bill is going in the right direction but really needs these qualifiers, and I concur. I think what we heard from the minister is that certainly there is an opening to amend the bill to strengthen the intent. The piece I certainly asked him about was to match what we have in the parks legislation with Gatineau Park.

Is that basically where you're coming from?

[Muriel How]

Yes, it's basically where we're coming from. In actual fact, we started at the very beginning, 10 years ago, saying that it should become a national park. And in fact, we have had a letter from the chief executive officer saying that it doesn't have to be a national park, but we can manage it similar to a national park. Therefore, all we're trying to do is make it equivalent to a national park, even though it's not a national park.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Okay, I wanted to be clear about that, because I think some people have an impression that the intent of some is to only be satisfied if it's a national park. And what I'm hearing you say is that we want to be practical about this and the outcome for everyone is to preserve the habitat, the use, and the legacy.

I'm really glad you mentioned the legacy, because it's in this book. Others have written about it. But there is a lot of history, of course, in the park. There is a lot of habitat that needs to be preserved, but those who have gone to the park, as I have and I'm sure everyone around this table has, note that we have a real legacy to protect in terms of the historical aspects.

Have you any concerns around that, in terms of the protection that is in the bill, to ensure that those historical facets are protected? Are there any concerns you have around that, or are you fine with what's in the bill?

[Muriel How]

I'm fine with what's in the bill, yes. Nobody will ever do anything to the Mackenzie King Estate, now that they've built that horrible road through it.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

He might sic his dog on them.

You have it in your document here, but can you speak to some of the habitat threats that exist right now for some of the species that people might not know of, and the threats that exist presently and will continue to be threats if we don't do something? Mention some of the species that are at risk, for instance.

[Muriel How]

John will do that.

[John McDonnell]

The real threat with Gatineau Park is that the park will become isolated from natural areas around it. The city of Gatineau is growing rapidly, the Hull sector and the Aylmer sector, as well as the municipality of Chelsea. Eventually what will happen is that the park could potentially be surrounded by development and those natural connections or those linkages to other natural areas will be lost. What will happen is that Gatineau Park will become an island of extinction, basically, because without those connections the species we find in the park will die out.

If you look at the Eardley Escarpment, there are countless rare species of plants and trees. In terms of biodiversity, Gatineau Park is probably one of the richest parks in the province of Quebec, so the real threat is that the park would become isolated. As well, the other threat is fragmentation. If you look at the southern part of the park, with the construction of Boulevard des Allumettières, that connection has been lost. An animal would have a lot of difficulty crossing that roadway. And north of there is Boulevard Saint-Raymond, and there is discussion that in the future Highway 50 may cross the park as well.

The park's proximity to the urban area is a good thing in one way, because it's a major tourist attraction and it's a jewel in the national capital region, but the fact that it's so close to the city is also a major threat. Its fragmentation and the loss of connections are major concerns.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

So we need to make sure we get this right, but also to get on with it.

[John McDonnell]

Yes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I could ask more questions, but I think I've used up my time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Thank you for coming today.

I'm interested in taking up where Mr. Dewar left off. I'm wondering if you're not asking to have it both ways--that it not be isolated, but also to have it close to a large centre. There are several million people living in the park now, is that correct? The park has several cities in it.

Sorry, I was talking about the NCC as a whole.

[John McDonnell]

Yes, the national capital region.