Evidence of meeting #32 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ncc.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nicole DesRoches  General Director, Regional council for the environment and sustainable development in Outaouais
Al Speyers  President, Alliance To Save Our Green Belt
Andrew McDermott  Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee
Jean-Paul Murray  Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

5:15 p.m.

General Director, Regional council for the environment and sustainable development in Outaouais

Nicole DesRoches

That's one solution. There is no single solution; there are various ways of doing it. I'm sure we could find other examples.

As I've already said, there are still farmers in Plaisance National Park, and there are agreements. I don't believe that has to be black and white. It seems to me there is a way of reaching an agreement, of sitting down with people and seeing what the best solution is. The houses represent 2% of the area of the park. I believe there are roads, that the houses have gardens and dogs and that they have an impact on more than 2% of the territory. However, the first thing is to sit down, talk it out and see what the best solution is. For the moment, we're talking amongst ourselves, but the people who live in the park and the NCC aren't here. I'll always be in favour of joint action and dialogue. We can come up with solutions.

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC

The representatives of the citizens and owners organizations appeared, and the NCC will be testifying soon. I'll ask them the same question.

5:15 p.m.

Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

Jean-Paul Murray

Thank you, Mr. Nadeau.

In fact, it's not entirely correct to say that only 2% of the park belongs to private residents. If you look at a map of the private residences inside the park, you'll see that they clog up all the infrastructure around Kingsmere Lake, Meech Lake, the boat ramps and trail heads. That creates a kind of Berlin wall. Their impact is much more significant than only 2%.

In response to your last question concerning the last occupant, personally that would suit me. But the problem has to be solved because private property is unacceptable in what is supposed to be a public area. The right of first refusal or the last occupant would be entirely acceptable in view of the fact that that would solve the problem in the short or long terms. The problem is still a problem, contrary to what some people think. That's been part of the NCC's policy since 1950 and the Federal District Commission.

How can we be fair to the people still living there? In my view, they have a right of first refusal. The Supreme Court has clearly held that a right of first refusal would not violate owners' property rights. It's a problem that has to be solved.

A Conservative member asked whether having a right of first refusal would be a problem for the occupants. In my opinion, that's not a problem. That respects their property rights; they can live on the premises. I'm told they can even transfer their ownership to their children, through a trust or right of inheritance, if they wish. That respects the rights of the people who are there. They didn't form the park as it stands; they inherited it. Parliament also has a financial and fiduciary responsibility toward the people to enable the NCC to implement its master plan gradually.

Whatever the case may be, the last occupant right would be a very promising solution.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

Mr. Jean, for a last comment.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just very quickly, Mr. Murray, you live 75 metres from the park. Indeed, the only two people who said this bill goes sideways, in essence, are Mr. McDermott and Mr. Murray, just to put it on the record.

I'm wondering, Mr. McDermott, if you live close to the park.

5:20 p.m.

Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

Andrew McDermott

No, I don't. I live in Ottawa, although I have a property in the Pontiac region, which is half an hour from the tail end of Gatineau Park. I know the region very well.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I do too. I live very close to it, as well.

5:20 p.m.

Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

Andrew McDermott

That's nice. How close?

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

In Hull, actually.

I use it quite extensively. It is a nice park and I think the people of Canada deserve to have the opportunity to use it. But at the same time, I'm wondering what would happen with this moratorium.

The NCC originally sold you your property, right, Mr. Murray?

October 26th, 2009 / 5:20 p.m.

Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

Jean-Paul Murray

Yes, that's right, on the open market.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Yes, I understand that, but if they institute a moratorium on any further development in Gatineau Park, would it not dramatically increase the value of the properties around the park?

5:20 p.m.

Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

Jean-Paul Murray

I don't know; I don't work in real estate.

Believe me, I've spent eight and a half years on this file. I've done the work of the environmentalists, the bureaucrats, and the politicians. If I were motivated by a pecuniary incentive, I would admit to it, first of all. But no, I'm motivated by the park and its environment. I've helped redress the history of the park, etc.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I'm just curious, because I would suggest that it would. Around most parks, that's what happens.

5:20 p.m.

Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

Jean-Paul Murray

Perhaps, but that's not my motivation.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I understand that, but would you prefer the status quo rather than this bill?

5:20 p.m.

Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

Jean-Paul Murray

Yes, for a very simple reason—

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Mr. McDermott, would you suggest the same?

5:20 p.m.

Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

Jean-Paul Murray

It's because of Treasury Board representation.

5:20 p.m.

Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

Andrew McDermott

Going back to the other honourable member's point before, this bill should have looked quite different. What we're suggesting—

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

I just ask, would you prefer the status quo rather than this bill?

5:20 p.m.

Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

Andrew McDermott

No. We need to amend this bill.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

Would you prefer the status quo rather than this bill? It's a yes or no answer.

5:20 p.m.

Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

Andrew McDermott

We need to amend this bill.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB

You haven't answered the question.

5:20 p.m.

Co-Chair, Gatineau Park Protection Committee

Jean-Paul Murray

I will answer your question—