Transport Committee on Nov. 30th, 2009

[Marc Grégoire]

... regulatory assessments and inspections. Today, we carry out SMS assessments and validation inspections. We are currently in the process of doing SMS assessments of our major carriers.

We are doing more than we have ever done before with a carrier. We are interviewing dozens of employees in each instance. When we do our assessment reports, we identify risk areas, so that we can go back and conduct validation inspections, sometimes in the short term, or, as the case may be, sometime later down the road in 2010. As part of the inspection process, we thoroughly examine the system which is part of the carrier's operations, much in the same way as we have always done. Instead of doing random inspections, as was the case in the past, we focus on risk factors and truly target our efforts where the payoff will be the greatest, namely air safety.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

As I said, the ICAO concluded that random inspections should continue to be carried out.

Furthermore, employees will be telling us later that all inspectors do right now is verify and check off the findings contained in the airline company reports. That may be true, but they also claim that other countries have not opted to do what Canada is doing.

That concerns me, all the more so when you say that our system is the best in the world. Jean Chrétien spoke of Canada as the “best country in the world”, but the fact remains that we are playing with people's safety.

Add to that the fact that you have delayed the system's implementation in another area and we have a problem somewhere.

[Marc Grégoire]

I don't see a problem. First of all, it's important to understand that for all of us at Transport Canada, especially those with the Civil Aviation Safety and Security Group, our main concern is safety. We all want to contribute, we are all professionals. Mr. Eley is an engineer, I am a trained pilot and an engineer. Our goal is to find ways to improve air safety.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Except that all you're doing right now is reviewing the reports prepared by the carriers. You are no longer actually inspecting aircraft.

[Marc Grégoire]

That isn't true. We continue to conduct the same number of inspections. Do you think we have 878 inspectors who sit around the office playing cards? We continue to do inspections. Our inspectors are very professional, very serious people.

We are learning a great deal from this exercise. We are the first country in the world to be doing this. These airlines were regulated in 2005 and Canada is the first country to have reached this stage in the enforcement of the act.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Meanwhile, you are still short 115 inspectors.

[Marc Grégoire]

Currently, we have 98 vacant positions.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

In any event, we will see later, because there is always a problem with numbers. As you know, we disagreed the last time around.

The francophone press reported this morning on a statement by the Canadian Federal Pilots Association to the effect that the implementation of safety management systems for the major airlines was taking longer than expected. You seem to be telling us the opposite.

[Marc Grégoire]

We have not slowed down the pace of implementation in the least. We have delayed the roll-out of the regulations to small carriers and small commercial operators. As for the large carriers like Air Canada, Sky Service, Air Transat and so forth, they are already regulated. We have not slowed down the pace in terms of implementing SMS. These carriers have been regulated since 2005.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I have to interrupt. I'm sorry, we're past our time.

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thanks, Mr. Chair. Thanks to the witnesses for coming today.

I've heard many concerns about safety in the aviation industry. I recognize that Canada has always had a great reputation for safety, and I'm sure everyone on this committee wants to maintain it. I'm sure the department does as well. But what we're hearing is that there are some concerns. There are some real concerns with the implementation of the safety management systems around the 705 carriers: concern about the inspectors not inspecting aircraft; that the random inspections and audits occur with prior notification to airlines; there is very little whistle-blower protection for people who may notice issues within the industry and report them; and certainly concerning the business jets there was some very deep concern about the outsourcing of the responsibility to the trade associations. These are some of the things that led to this discussion

In your e-mail of November 13, in which you acknowledge the concerns about how SMS is being implemented and the delay for air taxis and commuter operations—the 704s—why haven't you recommended actions to review SMS with the larger carriers, the ones for whom the system has been in place and for whom you can actually, through review, analyze the results you're getting with the system you have now?

[Marc Grégoire]

The assessment is being done now. Of course, we always want to improve; this is not a stale system. As we go, the inspectors who participate in the assessments of the major carriers provide us with invaluable feedback, and using that feedback, and also in talking with the unions and listening to our inspectors, we will improve staff instruction.

But just to make sure that we're clear here, a portion—and it has yet to be determined, and it depends on the carriers and on the risk—of our surveillance activities will always be validation inspections down to the operational level.

I don't think it should be too random, though. I think we should use the tools we have acquired through risk management within SMS to better focus our activities.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

To speak to the question of the inspectors, my understanding is that the number of inspectors has stayed fairly static over the past 20 years. Is that correct?

[Marc Grégoire]

The number of positions has in fact increased significantly over the last 20 years. I think we debated that here in committee a few years ago; I may have some figures that go back. But for a number of reasons it has increased significantly. For the last few years it has been hovering around 871 and now 878 positions, of which 98 are vacant today.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

What's the level of increase in operations in the last 20 years, with the 704 operators and the 705 operators? How much has air traffic increased in this country?

[Marc Grégoire]

I don't know by heart, but we could find that for you.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Is it on the order of 50%?

[Marc Grégoire]

I can't answer that now.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Well, it's a very important question, because if your air operations have increased by a very large extent—

[Marc Grégoire]

That's because you take the assumption or believe in the assumption that more traffic equals more inspectors. In fact, as I've said before here, we've asked risk experts whether the system would be safer if we increased the number of inspectors so much that we had enough to put one on every plane at every airport, at every port on every ship—

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

No one is suggesting that here. We're just suggesting that there's probably a relationship between inspectors.... We had a very safe system with the inspectors and we had a great international reputation with the system we had before. Will that carry through, when you have a larger operations base and the same number of inspectors? This doesn't mean you're putting an inspector on each plane; I don't think anybody is suggesting that.

Concerning ICAO safety commitments, are you meeting the requirements or the recommendations that ICAO has, with the implementation of SMS and the lack of regulatory enforcement and oversight?

[Marc Grégoire]

We believe we are meeting them, but we believe there is room for improvement; this is what we're doing now. But we do believe we're meeting them.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Then wouldn't you suggest a review of the SMS operations for large carriers in order to clarify this, after a number of years of operating in the fashion that you have, to ensure that the system is operating in a fashion that meets the requirements of the travelling public?

[Marc Grégoire]

We don't think a review such as you mentioned is needed at this point in time; it's a continuous process. We are now completing the assessment. By the end of March, we will have completed all of the carriers under 705, and, with the comments that we will have from our managers and from our inspectors, we will be able to further improve our staff instructions to our inspectors and then determine the cycle for the next three years for those carriers.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Let's talk about whistle-blowers. How many cases have you had so far, under SMS, in which you've had employees of airline companies coming forward with information? Can you give me any idea of that and of the reaction through the department towards them?