Transport Committee on March 24th, 2009

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

I would appreciate you sending them to us.

How many spills have there been?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I don't think we've seen significant environmental concerns yet with shipping in this regard. I guess what we're all concerned about is that with the effects of climate change and of water levels increasing and ice melting, we'll see more traffic. Rather than waiting for that to happen, this is a form of proactive mitigation with respect to anticipating future problems.

Donald could respond about existing issues regarding environmental spills.

[Donald Roussel]

There have been very few environmental spills and they are very small. We can also get you that data.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Thank you for doing that.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

With climate change, more vessels are operating in the Arctic. Last year, Churchill saw its first commercial vessel from Russia. We do not want to wait until an accident happens; we want to be proactive. That is the goal of this bill.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Roussel, you said there is not much traffic in the new 200-mile zone. Do you know about how many ships there are between 100 and 200 miles?

[Donald Roussel]

There is little traffic in that zone. But there is some. We are presently conducting several geological studies in that zone, mainly in order to determine its oil and gas potential.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Mr. Minister, you say you want to be prepared for the future. Given the bill that you are introducing today, you expect much more sea traffic in the years to come. Did I understand correctly?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

With climate change, there will certainly be a great increase in traffic in the Northwest Passage over the next 10 to 30 years. We must be proactive. We must not wait for an environmental accident to happen and then ask ourselves why we did not act sooner. International agreements already give us the power to proceed. We are ready to act.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Do you use climate change studies? Does your information on climate change and ice conditions come from environmental studies?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I would look at the sixth, seventh, and eighth reports, released in 2007, of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. It's pretty groundbreaking work. They can only predict what the physical changes will be. As far as what the commercial patterns can be, obviously if you look at the passage being traversable for more of the year, it's self-evident that you could see a significant increase in traffic. The IPCC is the one that I think is.... More than 200 Canadian scientists participated, and 40 of them were lead authors. That's certainly, for me, the seminal work.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Is that the report you used to establish the principles of your bill?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Sure. When it comes to the need for adaptation, definitely.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Fine. You said that you would increase the Transport Canada or Coast Guard presence. Do you have a time line and an estimate of the number of people that you are going to deploy?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We'll do what I think is required. Obviously we can use technology, satellite, and so on. That would be the best use. Obviously you do need a presence in the area directly.

I'll turn it over to Donald, who can speak to specifics on that. But it very much would be an integrated effort, not only with Transport Canada and Environment Canada but also with Fisheries and Oceans, coast guard, and the military as required.

[Donald Roussel]

We work together with the Departments of Transport, Fisheries and Oceans, and Natural Resources mostly to determine trends and to find out who is in the Arctic now and who will be there next season. It is a huge area and we try to focus our resources on places where there is activity.

We have a number of specific examples of the way we go about it. Last year, we established the Baffin Island Project. Ships from Quebec sailed to Baffin Island to look for minerals bound for Europe. There are other examples in the western Arctic. Projects in the Arctic are often planned one or two years in advance. We know where there will be activity and that is where we concentrate our efforts and our resources, both aerial surveillance and inspections of ships, especially foreign ones, that come to the area.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

One thing, when it comes to the Arctic, is that the Prime Minister and the Minister of Finance have been focused and generous when it comes to resources that are required for this area. It is a priority. It has been a priority. I think we've done a significant amount. I think there is more work to be done, and I have every confidence we'll be appropriately funded to tackle this challenge.

[Mario Laframboise, Bloc, Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC]

Outside the 100 miles covered by the current act, do these people with projects not have to ask anyone at the moment? You said earlier that you kept track of development and, if people wanted to do research, they had to contact you for projects inside the present 100 nautical mile limit. But between 100 nautical miles and 200 nautical miles, the area that we want to take over, that is, do people have to account for themselves at the moment or can they do research as they please?

[Victor Santos-Pedro, Director, Design, Equipment and Boating Safety, Department of Transport]

I would just mention that there is one project that is in fact still within the 100 miles, but it is very close to the border. In fact, we weren't quite sure whether it was within or outside, but that is a proposed project for exploration in the Beaufort Sea. But there is nothing else in that additional area.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

I would ask the officials, when you gather that information, if you would actually submit it to the chair to be distributed. That would be fine.

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

I'm pleased to see this bill here, as well. Although it's simple, it opens up a lot of things we obviously have to do through the Government of Canada to make this not simply a piece of paper but a reality on the ground. I think quite clearly there are opportunities to get a better handle on it.

I know there was some mention of planning. Looking at the resources that are going to be in the area, I believe the Arctic Council is moving quickly towards—and this was presented at the gathering of northern parliamentarians in Fairbanks—the finishing of a study on the different areas where the Arctic is going to be used. That includes shipping, of course, fisheries, tourism, and resource development. These all come together, and that report could be a basis for understanding the potential requirements for this type of legislation in that area.

The work is going on internationally that I think this government should pick up on, and that's one of the questions I have. There are many things happening internationally that will affect our ability to prevent pollution in the area and to actually prevent pollution rather than enforce pollution rules. One of them would be, of course, to establish mandatory operational requirements for vessels in northern waters. Transport Canada has initiated that work in years gone by, and what it needs is a firm commitment by our government and an appetite to work on this at the international level through cooperation to get these mandatory requirements together.

Maybe your department could speak a little bit to that.

[Victor Santos-Pedro]

Yes, I could address both. I believe you're referring to the Arctic marine shipping assessment, which is an initiative of the Arctic Council. Canada has participated in the development of that assessment. That assessment in fact is now being finalized, with a number of recommendations that will be presented at a ministerial meeting that is to happen at the end of April in Norway.

You also mentioned issues about other international initiatives. The thrust of some of the recommendations is indeed to have more collaboration of the circumpolar states to have international requirements for shipping.

I can also add just briefly that at the International Maritime Organization work is under way. Just recently the guidelines for ships operating in Arctic ice-covered waters have been updated and it's following on its way to what one may say is a higher level, towards a potential mandatory requirement in the Arctic for shipping.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

If I could jump into this, by no means should this act be seen as a job completed with respect to environmental protection in the Arctic. I think that's going to be an ongoing responsibility. We've got to continue, I think, to do more to ensure we don't make the same mistakes in the north as we've made in southern Canada and other parts of the world.

I do strongly believe there have to be more redundancies and requirements for shipping there, not to simply look at how we punish the bad actors, but at how we ensure, if there's a double or triple redundancy, that the accident doesn't happen in the first place. And whether that's a transportation vessel or a research vessel, whether we're dealing with diesel for propulsion purposes, whether we're dealing with safety of individuals, or whether they be crew or passengers, that is a concern.

An example is the whale sanctuary we did in Nunavut, an important part, because we have cruise ships beginning to get there. So this will be very much a work in progress, and we're certainly committed to do more.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Yes, and we did lose a cruise ship in the Antarctic in the ice conditions, and I think we have to be very cognizant—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I totally agree.