Evidence of meeting #28 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Doug Dobrowolski  President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities
Joe Masi  Executive Director, Association of Manitoba Municipalities
Gilles Vaillancourt  Member of the Executive Committee, President of the Commission on Fiscality and Local Finances and Mayor of the City of Laval, Union of Quebec Municipalities
Bernard Généreux  President, Fédération Québécoise des Municipalités

October 21st, 2010 / 11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Good morning, everyone.

Welcome to meeting number 28 of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are studying the impact of the Government of Canada's deadline of March 31, 2011, for the completion of projects under the infrastructure stimulus fund and the recreational infrastructure Canada program.

Joining us today from the Association of Manitoba Municipalities are Mr. Doug Dobrowolski, president, and Mr. Joe Masi, executive director.

Welcome to the committee, gentlemen. I'm sure you've been given the process that we go through. I know you have a presentation. I'll ask you to do that and then we'll go to the members for questions.

Please begin.

11:05 a.m.

Doug Dobrowolski President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities

Good morning and thank you.

On behalf of the Association of Manitoba Municipalities, which represents all 198 municipalities, we want to thank you for the opportunity to present here today.

Municipal government has played a huge role in Canada's stimulus plan. Manitoba municipalities have been working flat out to make it a success and want to ensure that every dollar is working to create jobs and build our rural and urban economies for a stronger province and stronger country.

As we all know, the recent economic crisis was one of the worst since the Great Depression. Research has shown that investing in infrastructure is the best way to create jobs and grow your economy. It has been shown that when it comes to fighting a recession, investing in infrastructure is twice as effective as tax cuts.

Weeks before the government even released its economic action plan, municipalities in Manitoba had compiled a list of many shovel-ready projects. Municipalities in Manitoba and right across this country were ready to go to work. In January 2009, we applauded the government's decision to make infrastructure a cornerstone of its economic action plan. In the following months, new funding was rolled out in record time, although there were some challenges.

It took time for the government to negotiate funding agreements, design programs, and approve projects in all provinces and territories. That created time pressures, which we are still trying to manage. The Association of Manitoba Municipalities certainly welcomes the federal government's commitment to being fair and reasonable when it comes to the stimulus deadline.

A lot has been achieved in some 20 months in Manitoba, with 73 approved municipal projects with a total project cost of $75.5 million. Under the Building Canada fund communities component top-up, there were 22 projects approved, for a total of $54.4 million.

From the time all agreements in Manitoba were given the green light, Manitoba municipalities have been going flat out to ensure that those stimulus dollars are working in their communities. Infrastructure Canada has been working closely with Manitoba to monitor these projects and has found that vast majority are on track.

AMM has been in close contact with our members. From what they are telling us, projects are on or ahead of schedule in most places. However, there are also some communities in Manitoba where projects started unusually late. Through no fault of their own, Manitoba municipalities have had to deal with excessive rainfall, delay in provincial approvals, and late approvals in trying to meet the stimulus deadline. In Manitoba, out of 73 projects approved, four are at risk and one will not be completed. Out of the top-up of the 22 projects, two projects are at risk and one will not be completed.

In Manitoba, most budgets were done when the stimulus and Building Canada funds were announced, so expenditures were not in the municipal financial plans and therefore had to go to an additional municipal board hearing for borrowing approval and also public hearings, causing unfortunate delays.

That's one of the problems that we see in Manitoba: the provincial regulations and provincial delays. When there are time-sensitive deadlines, these really play into trying to get these projects completed, because even if you go to the municipal board for a borrowing bylaw, they have up to 90 days to make their decision, therefore delaying projects. It's an unknown for municipalities as to whether or not they will get their borrowing approved. In regard to provincial regulations like the highway traffic board environmental approvals, these are necessary steps in the process, but have also been shown to be barriers in regard to time-sensitive deadlines. That's what we were finding in Manitoba.

Working together, federal, provincial, and territorial governments have helped pull Canada through the darkest days of the recession. Things have not gone perfectly, nor will they ever, especially when you're responding to a global crisis. When it comes to the stimulus deadline, we welcome the federal government's promise to be fair and reasonable.

We have two specific recommendations to help the government live up to that commitment.

First, the government should commit immediately to showing flexibility wherever a community has worked hard to meet the deadline but, through no fault of its own, requires more time to finish a stimulus project. It should encourage the Province of Manitoba to do the same.

Second, the federal and Manitoba governments should direct the public service to start working on the individual communities to adjust project schedules as necessary.

In conclusion, up till now, the three stimulus partners--federal, provincial/territorial, and municipal—have shown flexibility where necessary. The federal government showed flexibility when it worked with each province and territory to design specific stimulus programs that met their regional needs.

Municipalities showed themselves to be flexible when they waited months, and sometimes as long as a year, for all levels of government to approve projects. Now, as we enter the home stretch of the stimulus plan, it is clear that continued flexibility is the key to continued success.

After stimulus, we cannot say that the problem is solved. We must look back at the stimulus program and the lessons learned so that we can work toward a long-term plan for investing in our infrastructure and our communities. We must use what we have learned to look at our longer-term infrastructure needs and to start designing the next generation of federal infrastructure programs. That way, when the fiscal outlook improves, we will be in a position to protect our recent gains and to build the infrastructure that Canada needs to thrive in the 21st century.

Thank you very much.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. McCallum.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you.

Thanks very much to both of you for being with us today.

First, when the government says that it will be “fair and reasonable”, that's sort of in the eye of the beholder. It's a little bit vague and I would have thought that it would create significant uncertainty for municipalities. Are you asking for a blanket extension for everyone or are you asking for it case by case? What is it that you are asking for?

11:10 a.m.

President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities

Doug Dobrowolski

We're asking for a case-by-case look at the projects. I know that some are going to be well ahead of the targeted deadline, but there are some, as I said, that through no fault of their own.... We have had excessive moisture in Manitoba, a record amount of moisture, and there have been delays in getting the skilled labour to complete these projects, so you have to look at them on a case-by-case basis.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I have heard it said that since every municipality in the country is working to the same deadline, in some cases that in itself is creating shortages, or a bidding war, if you like, in terms of skilled labour and in terms of pipes and other materials. Is that an issue in Manitoba?

11:10 a.m.

President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities

Doug Dobrowolski

There's no doubt that when you have an infrastructure program of this magnitude, there is that element. The contingency fees are higher. Pipe prices or prices for whatever materials seem to be higher. We are experiencing that in Manitoba.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Does that mean you have cost overruns?

11:10 a.m.

President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities

Doug Dobrowolski

There are not huge cost overruns, I must say, but there are increased costs when they are going to tender. But in a lot of cases, tenders are coming in under the projected price.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

In the event of cost overruns, who pays the additional cost?

11:10 a.m.

President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities

Doug Dobrowolski

Well, the municipality has been paying. Where we're seeing the cost overruns is in the specialized equipment, such as equipment for water treatment or sewage treatment. That's where we're seeing it. For normal gravel, for that type of road construction, we don't seem to be seeing that. It seems to be for the specialized equipment and specialized labour that are needed to put these in place.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Well, I've suggested a blanket extension of a period such as six months, on the grounds that it would alleviate this bidding war, would not require the bureaucracy to go over each project, and would prevent the possibility of the government picking and choosing between its friends and its non-friends in terms of who gets an extension--and unemployment will still be high six months from March 31.

Would you support such a six-month extension across the board?

11:10 a.m.

President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities

Doug Dobrowolski

Any extension is very welcome, and I think we have to look at that. Again, when you look at Manitoba in particular, we're on track, but there are going to be a few that are going to need some help. Once we get closer--such as January--we can monitor at what stage they are in the construction process to determine then how long a deadline extension is needed.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I used to live in Manitoba, and I know that the winter isn't very warm. Is there much construction possible between now and March 31?

11:15 a.m.

President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities

Doug Dobrowolski

Yes, there are a lot of water treatment and sewage treatment plants that have the shells up, and they're working inside. Of course, road construction, as you know, cannot continue.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

I have one last question. At the beginning of the infrastructure stimulus program, we said that we favoured a gas tax type of mechanism, because we already had a template for how that worked. The money could have been transferred faster and the shovels would have been in the ground faster. Do you agree with that?

11:15 a.m.

President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities

Doug Dobrowolski

The gas tax fund is an excellent program, but in the case of the stimulus program, I think you needed a combination of both. You needed a base amount plus a per capita amount if you wanted that to work to get the money out.

Because even under the current gas tax fund, smaller communities, on a per capita basis, don't get a lot of money. This way, we just think the combination of a base amount plus a per capita amount would have gotten the money out really quickly. It has gone very well in Manitoba. We really don't have any complaints.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Maybe you can't tell us this, but you say that two projects won't be completed for sure: are you able to say which ones or where those are?

11:15 a.m.

President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities

Doug Dobrowolski

Yes. One is at Elma, Manitoba. It's a water treatment plant, and water distribution, and that's because it's held up through the municipal board hearing process. There have been objections there. I'm not quite sure on the other one, on the top-up.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

What was the first one again?

11:15 a.m.

President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities

Doug Dobrowolski

It's the Elma water project. They're proposing a water treatment and water distribution through the municipality, but it's being opposed, and the municipal board is taking forever to make a decision on their borrowing bylaw. The municipality wants to go ahead with it, but they seem to be running into obstacles. There's legal action now.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

John McCallum Liberal Markham—Unionville, ON

Thank you very much.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Mr. Dhaliwal, you have one minute and 20 seconds.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sukh Dhaliwal Liberal Newton—North Delta, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses as well.

It is my understanding a pedestrian bridge project over Omand's Creek in Winnipeg was cancelled. Is that money lost to Manitoba or did the money go to another project?

11:15 a.m.

President, Association of Manitoba Municipalities

Doug Dobrowolski

I'm not familiar with the project. I'm sorry. I cannot comment on that because I'm not familiar with it.