Transport Committee on Nov. 4th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Welcome to Bill C-20, an act to amend the National Capital Act and other acts.

The witness again today, on behalf of the Department of Transport, is Simon Dubé. Welcome again.

When we last adjourned we had moved on to clause 11, and the first amendment on clause 11 is government amendment G-7.

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Yes, Mr. Chair, thank you.

I would put forward G-7 for clause 11. The idea of this particular clause is it amends paragraph 12(1)(a) of the NCC Act, to clarify that the development proposals by federal departments on any lands in the NCR must be submitted to the national capital region commission for approval before the start of the project, if the proposal forms part of the project and it meets one or more of the following conditions. The three conditions are laid out there. The conditions in this case are that the project is to be carried out within the national interest land mass; the project involves a heritage building; or the project relates to a transaction to which the Government of Canada is a party, if the transaction provides for or contemplates the right of Her Majesty the Queen to occupy for a term of more than 25 years, even under a lease.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Comment?

Monsieur Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I just want clarification, Mr. Chair. The substitution under proposed paragraph 12(1)(c) talks of “the department”. Would this apply strictly to properties in the Gatineau Park and the greenbelt, or is this at large for an NCC property?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

My understanding is it's projects to be carried out within the national interest land mass, so it would include all of it. That's my understanding.

Mr. Dubé.

[Simon Dubé, Director, Portfolio Management, Crown Corporation Governance, Department of Transport]

Actually it goes beyond that, because the first part of proposed section 12 deals with any land in the national capital region, and that intends to cover any federal projects that will be on lands in the region. So it's already clear in the rest of proposed section 12 that all projects go through the National Capital Commission when a department, for instance, wants to change a building. For approval they go to the NCC. Proposed paragraph 12(1)(a) deals with other lands that are not federal property, but the NCC would still have a right of approval and the design and the land use would be for federal use.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Chair, if I may, I would like to ask the witness a "quiz" question.

That means that the temporary 35-year lease between the National Capital Commission and Public Works and Government Services, on behalf of the House of Commons, for the building at 1 Wellington, is illegal because it was signed before this change?

[Simon Dubé]

In fact, given that it is a property that already belongs to the Commission, the Commission will definitely have a right to oversee the design and appearance of the building and the use made of it.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That's not what I'm asking, Mr. Dubé. There is a lease at present between the National Capital Commission and the Department of Public Works, on behalf of the House of Commons, for the building at 1 Wellington Street—some say it's at 1 Rideau Street—where the former Canadian Museum of Contemporary Photography was located.

Public Works told us this was a temporary lease to provide meeting rooms for House of Commons committees, that it was leased temporarily. When we asked for a definition of "temporarily", we were told the lease was for 35 years. So that is beyond the 25 years referred to here. Does that mean that the 35-year lease was not legal at the time it was signed? The National Capital Commission could not have signed an agreement for more than 25 years. Is that how I should understand it? I'm asking you the question.

[Simon Dubé]

No. We're talking about different things here. The authority to enter into a lease isn't covered at all under section 12 of the National Capital Act. Section 12 deals with proposals made by federal entities to erect or alter buildings in the National Capital Region. So we aren't talking about a transaction like a lease, it's rather about what is done to the actual structure of the building.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

It doesn't relate to leasehold improvements.

[Simon Dubé]

Exactly.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

In the case of the Portrait Museum, because everything was done in the form of leasehold improvements, the outside of the building wasn't touched.

[Simon Dubé]

Right, it isn't subject to this authorization.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Seeing no further comment, I will ask whether amendment G-7 shall carry.

(Amendment agreed to) [See Minutes of Proceedings]

We're now going to move to amendment BQ-9.

Monsieur Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This amendment deals with the powers of the NCC relating to the National Interest Land Mass.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Is there comment?

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

I was not sure; I just checked the records, Mr. Chair. I thought this particular one was found not to be admissible because of other ones that were previous in time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Because of the difficulty in presenting it as an adjunct to the previous BQ amendment, I've allowed it to be presented for debate.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

That's not a problem.

This obviously would reverse everything in relation to clause 11 and quite a bit of clause 10, I think, and would eliminate the clause on the national interest land mass.

Is that the idea of the clause, just so that I can have clarification?

The government would vote against that, of course.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Monsieur Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Could we have clarification from Mr. Nadeau on the purpose of this amendment?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Monsieur Nadeau.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

This means the entire subject of the National Interest Land Mass we talked about last time. This issue is causing problems for us because we think it amounts to interference in territory that belongs to the Government of Quebec.

First, we submitted an amendment in which our proposal was set out, but that amendment was defeated. As a result, we would like the rules relating to the National Interest Land Mass to be removed, because we do not recognize the power of either the NCC or the federal government in this regard.