Transport Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2010

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

(Amendment withdrawn)

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Everyone acknowledges that I am a model of flexibility.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Absolutely, and we'll make note of that in the final report.

The next amendment, by the most generous Monsieur Guimond.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Very well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

It is BQ-2 on page 4.

[Michel Guimond, Bloc, Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC]

Let us see if Ms. Fobes will once again pull a rabbit out of her hat.

A rather large number of witnesses who work in the area of civil liberties shared with us their concerns with regard to the breadth of the personal information to be supplied. Even Ms. Stoddart's comments were along those lines.

The avowed purpose of this amendment is therefore to limit the information supplied to the following: the surname, first name, sex, date of birth and flight number of the person.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Comments?

Mr. Jean.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Yes, Mr. Chair. I actually listened to the same witnesses and had the same concerns that Monsieur Guimond did on this. The reality is that it's fine to have those concerns in Canada, but the difficulty is that the purpose of this bill is to amend it so that we can provide to the foreign state information of people who are actually flying or within that foreign state.

The difficulty is that the U.S. law is clear on the information elements required for the U.S. to allow foreign air carriers into their airspace. If we limit the data elements to a smaller list, as is proposed by Monsieur Guimond, the airlines would not be in compliance.

That's what I understand, anyway, and correct me if I'm wrong, please. The airlines would not be in compliance with the U.S. law that actually specifies what data elements are to be listed. Then, as a result, if this particular clause and amendment are carried as proposed by Monsieur Guimond, the likely result would be that these Canadian carriers would not be granted access to U.S. airspace.

Because if I'm clear on the research that I've received, the U.S. law data elements require: name; date of birth; gender; a redress number so that they can redress it; passport number; passport country of issuance; the expiration date on the passport; foreign airport code, so place or origin; port of first arrival; airline carrier code; flight number; date of departure; time of departure; date of arrival; scheduled time of arrival; reservation control number; record sequence number; record type; passenger update indicator; and travel reference number.

Is that list exhaustive or is there more? That is the list that is required by the U.S. legislation to allow air carriers in, am I correct?

[Kristina Namiesniowski, Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

Mr. Chairman, that is the list that's prescribed in the U.S. secure flight rule. As the member has indicated, the first three elements of that list are mandatory. If the other information is available to the air carriers, then they are obliged to turn that over.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

To my way of thinking--and I'm not an airport expert or an airline expert--the rest of the information would be known to the air carrier, because they couldn't, obviously, offer the services without that information and, as a result, they would be required by U.S. law to provide that information.

If we actually support Monsieur Guimond's amendment in this case, then we're not in compliance with U.S. law. As a result, the likelihood is that they would.... Even though we're making steps on this bill, if we limit it to not apply to U.S. law or to not be in compliance with U.S. law, they're not going to allow our aircraft through their airspace. That seems like a fairly straightforward situation, doesn't it?

Sorry, but the mike can't hear you nod.

[Kristina Namiesniowski]

I was going to say yes, Mr. Chairman, that would be the situation.

I think it would place air carriers in a very difficult situation. They would have to choose between respecting the U.S. law, which would allow them access to their airspace, or they would be in a position where they would have to make a decision about whether or not they complied with Canadian law that then wouldn't allow them to access U.S. airspace. It puts air carriers in a very difficult situation.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Mr. Chair, I'm just wondering now if there is other information. As I say, I'm not an expert.

We've heard from witnesses, but is there other information that they provide air carriers that's not included on this list?

[Kristina Namiesniowski]

Other information that's provided to air carriers?

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

For instance, Visa numbers.... I'm just thinking of what happened with Winners and some of those situations with data that was provided and obviously corrupted and was available on the public domain for a period of time. Is there additional information that air carriers would have, other than this? I think they would. I'm an Air Canada frequent flyer, so there would be more information that air carriers get from us—Visa numbers, what kind of meal we prefer, and things like that—correct?

[Kristina Namiesniowski]

I can't speak to what air carriers actually have in their possession because I'm not familiar enough with how they do their business.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

Well, they do. I know that because they ask me every time what meal I would like or where I would like to sit. So they have that information.

Would we actually be able to technically transfer that information to the U.S.? How do they transfer it? It's done by data; it's done by computer. I understand that there's not an operator sitting there and keying in 180,000 entries every day. It's done by data. To generate data from one field to another, you need a computer program that will allow it to go to those fields. Are you following me?

[Kristina Namiesniowski]

Yes, I am following you.

[Brian Jean, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB]

So for this other information they collect, such as what meal I like, or whether I like to sit by a window or a door, or whatever the situation is, can that information actually be communicated to the U.S.? What I guess I'm asking is about the time-limited nature.... Is the information limited to the information I just read off, to that list, or does that other information get shared by the airlines with the U.S. government?

I don't want the U.S. government to know what my Visa number is—not that I have enough room on it. I simply don't want them to know what it is, or what meals I like, or where I like to sit in airplanes. Is that information going to be transferred to them or is it limited to those things I read out?

[Kristina Namiesniowski]

Mr. Chairman, to the best of my knowledge, the only information that air carriers would be transmitting to the U.S. government is the information that is prescribed in the secure flight rule.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Can you clarify...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I will clarify. I am getting it translated. I got it late yesterday from the Homeland Security people. I'll read it, to clarify that if I may, but I am also waiting for translation. I'm told that it will be ready early Monday. It says, “Secure Flight does not collect or receive any other personal information such as address, phone numbers, credit card numbers, or meal or seat preferences”. I think it's very clear that they do not collect that information.

The letter I'm quoting from, for the information of members--and as I say, I will share it--is from Mr. David Jacobson, who is the ambassador.

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

Mr. Chair, and perhaps to the witnesses as well, we received a proposed regulation that was given to us a number of meetings ago and indicated quite clearly that the passenger name record would be one of the items shared. So has the government now gone back on that particular proposed regulation?

[Kristina Namiesniowski]

Mr. Chairman, as I've indicated already, the only information that would be provided to the U.S. government pursuant to the secure flight program would be name, date of birth, and gender, which some could describe as passenger name record.