Evidence of meeting #39 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:05 p.m.
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
Ms. Namiesniowski, it is worrisome, when you mention that any other information that the airline might have could be...
When we show our passport in a country that requires it upon landing, the airline company, before take-off, asks to see our passport in the airport of departure.
In my case, it is not so bad. I, Michel Guimond, was born in Chicoutimi, Quebec. However, if my name was Dhaliwal or if my name was Arab-sounding... If the act does not guard us against the racial profiling that the Americans might do, then they could say that they would do a double and a triple check of all Arab-sounding names. That is where the danger lies.
My amendment is based on the statement made before us by Minister Toews. I will read you a short six line paragraph, which is at the bottom of page 8 of the French version. Mr. Toews stated the following to us:
The final rule stipulates that airlines are required to provide each passenger's full name, date of birth and gender to the Transportation Security Administration before departure for all domestic and international flights landing in the U.S., as well as those that fly over U.S. air space.
When I drafted this amendment, I had the Minister's speech beside me. I added the flight number, because this whole thing has to, in some way, be linked to an airplane. I added: "must provide the flight number, the surname, first name, sex and date of birth".
Where is the problem? The Minister told us that the final rule of the Secure Flight Program...
You worry me when you say that we could provide any other information, not just information stating that the person had chicken rather than steak 15 times over the course of his or her 15 last flights. Let us stop being silly here; we do not have any time to waste.
That being said, my amendment is consistent with what the Minister told us.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
I think I have three more names on it.
I'm going to read again from the letter I received:
To be specific: Secure Flight Passenger Data is screened against Terrorist Screening Database Records (TSDB, the U.S. Government's consolidated consolidated terrorist watchlist, including the No Fly and Selectee lists). Secure Flight Passenger Data is also screened against significant public health records issued by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Secure Flight Passenger Data is shared for aviation security/national security purposes upon confirmation of positive matches to either the TSDB or CDC records. In very limited circumstances which are considered on a case-by-case basis, Secure Flight Passenger Data may be shared with other law enforcement agencies under 5 U.S.C. 552(b)(7) of the Privacy Act. Sharing under this exception is for specific law enforcement situations.
They do put a tag line in here that:
Any information shared is limited to an individual or limited group of individuals for specific investigative purposes related to terrorism or national security. Since the inception of the Secure Flight program, TSA has provided information about a traveler to federal law enforcement officials on only three occasions to further a terrorism or national security investigation.
I think the intent of suggesting this is the fact that if you aren't on a list, or you don't match, as was stated earlier, your name is taken off the list immediately. The fact that they've only advanced information three times would suggest in my mind—my mind only—that they are handling the information as appropriate.
I have Mr. Jean next.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Mr. Chair, I didn't really understand Mr. Guimond's argument in relation to the minister and I'd like to hear from him again after my intervention. It was going a bit fast and the translator.... I didn't really understand.
I want to mention as well, on the information I have, that I still haven't heard an answer to my question from some time ago, when I asked if we can put into our law only what is required by U.S. law so that no additional information is shared. That's the first question I have.
Second--and I was surprised here, because I was concerned with what Mr. Guimond said about racial profiling, etc.--I notice that nowhere do they ask for place of birth. Is that the case, or am I missing it?
1:10 p.m.
A voice
It's in the passport.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
Oui, oui, but they don't ask for the passport either. They ask for passport number, name, birthdate, and gender, but according to the information I have, the U.S. doesn't see the passport until they come to the gate, and they don't ask for the place of birth beforehand. I'm just suggesting that since 75% of the 9/11 people came—
1:10 p.m.
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
You do not show your passport at the access door; you show your passport upon registering your luggage. Before registering your luggage, you show your passport.
1:10 p.m.
Bloc
Michel Guimond Bloc Montmorency—Charlevoix—Haute-Côte-Nord, QC
The information regarding place of birth is contained in the passport. The airline can have it and can therefore provide it to the Americans.
Truth has its rights.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
I understand, but my point is that from what I understand, that's not one of the things the U.S. is asking for and it is not one of the things that will be transferred by the data. That's my point, Mr. Guimond. I was just interested to see that place of birth, even though it's on the passport, was not one of those things that the airline is required to share with the U.S. government.
However, I'd like an answer to my first question, because then, of course, we would comply with U.S. law in relation to that particularly.
Second, am I missing something in relation to place of birth? Saudi Arabia is an example. A majority of the 9/11-involved people were from Saudi Arabia, and obviously they're not even asking for that here. It would seem to indicate to me that the U.S. is not doing at least that type of profiling based on place of birth.
1:15 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Mr. Chairman, perhaps I can offer a couple of comments.
With respect to what will be transmitted by air carriers to the U.S. government, again I reiterate that it would be the government's intention to prescribe by regulation exactly what type of information could be transmitted, and that would be information that is identified by way of the U.S. secure flight final rule. Therefore it is information that is required by the law of that foreign state.
In terms of that information, does that information require that air carriers provide the country of birth of the individual? No, it does not. The information that is mandatory is full name; date of birth, but not location; gender; redress number; passport number; passport country of issuance, which could very well be different from an individual's place of birth; passport expiration date; and passport name record locator.
1:15 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Actually, I'm sorry; I misspoke. Passport name record locator is not information that is required to be provided under the secure flight program.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
I have to follow the list. I have Mr. Bevington, Mr. McCallum, and Monsieur Guimond.
1:15 p.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
I think we all realize the nature of the information that is available. Are you familiar with the Patriot Act in the United States?
1:15 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Yes, Mr. Chairman, I am.
1:15 p.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
Quite clearly the United States, in terms of any aliens in that country, has the ability to collect information from any source. Isn't that correct? There are no privacy restrictions on any foreign traveller in the United States.
1:15 p.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Mr. Chairman, I'm not an expert on U.S. legislation, but what I can offer is that in the discussions we've had with the U.S. government, they've been very clear with us that the intention of this program is aviation and national security.
They've also indicated that they believe that the interpretation of some with respect to the Patriot Act is much broader than what is actually permitted under the Patriot Act. What they've indicated to us in relation to this program and how the information would be used is that it would be used for the purposes of watchlist matching. If there is no match, then that information would be dispensed with after seven days.
They've also indicated--and I think, Mr. Chairman, that you read from the letter provided by Ambassador Jacobson--that in certain limited circumstances, when an investigation potentially links to somebody whose personal information is shared and in the hands of the Transportation Security Administration and there is a connection to aviation security or national security, that information could potentially be shared; however, as I understand it, there are guidelines around that, and as you indicated, Mr. Chair, it has only happened three times since the secure flight program has been in existence.
1:15 p.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
For the counsel, is there anything in any of the negotiations that have taken place with the United States that would actually fetter the United States in acquiring information on a Canadian passenger?
1:15 p.m.
Counsel, Legal Services, Department of the Solicitor General (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)
What do you mean by “fetter?”
1:15 p.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
I mean anything that would limit the U.S. in accessing any information available to them through the Patriot Act on any Canadian citizen overflying the United States. “Fetter” means that the United States actually would be under obligation, not simply under agreement under the terms of a letter from an ambassador or an understanding reached during a discussion. It would be something that would actually fetter their ability to collect or share this information.
1:15 p.m.
Counsel, Legal Services, Department of the Solicitor General (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)
What you're saying is the secure flight program would be subject to something else.
1:15 p.m.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Western Arctic, NT
Yes, it would be subject to an arrangement made with Canada on the provision of information and the nature of information on Canadian citizens overflying the United States.
1:15 p.m.
Counsel, Legal Services, Department of the Solicitor General (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness)
We don't have such a privacy protection or data element agreement or treaty. The EU and the U.S. have one that they've been negotiating for a number of years, but we have to remember that Secure Flight is about grabbing information temporarily, matching it against watchlists, and then destroying it if there's no match.
