Transport Committee on March 30th, 2010

[Marc Grégoire]

Yes, of course.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Volpe, on a point of order.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

No, it's a clarification. It's perhaps to help Mr. Grégoire and the rest of the committee.

It was my impression that what we were going to do in a subsequent meeting is actually have people from stakeholders and companies, etc., and that the members of the department would be present so that they could, if need be, respond to challenges. I'm wondering whether Monsieur Grégoire is going to be one of those people who comes in. He could present those to the committee through you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

I also know that the department has contacted my office and the clerk's office to see what their position would be, whether they would be at the table or as guests to be brought forward. I see no problem with them either being at the table or being in the crowd to come forward and answer as issues arise.

Madam Baltacioglu.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Mr. Chairman, we're not exactly sure what the schedule of the committee is. You hold many meetings.

We do have staff in the room when the committee meets because it's important for our department to hear what the views of the parliamentarians are. However, given that you're going to have many witnesses, it might be a little bit easier on us if you hear your witnesses, and then once there's a compilation of the issues, we will be more than happy to come back. You will have us all back and we will be happy to answer and have a debate with it, because this is not an area where the solutions are simple. It's a continuous improvement issue.

We will be happy to come back once you have done your deliberations and heard from the witnesses. We would be better prepared. If the committee is comfortable, we would prefer to approach it that way. That's partly because different groups will have different views at every committee meeting that you hold, but it is important for the department to engage with the committee in a holistic manner, taking consideration of all of the views out there. You hear all sides of the story and we have to do what's right and manage all of the issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

I think it's fair to say that obviously if an issue comes up from one of the meetings that needs to be addressed immediately we'll certainly contact the department for that answer.

Mr. Bevington.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

I want to go into this culture of SMS and how it's going to apply. You've delayed the implementation with small operators, but in essence.... In my discussions with the large operators in the industry, I understand how a large-volume company with many employees can establish a culture of safety and maintain it. But at a certain level within the aviation industry, wouldn't it be safe to say that you want a common culture of safety? When you're dealing with small carriers, the standards that the small carriers have to carry.... They don't have the ability, the time, the opportunity to establish a culture on their own. They rely on Transport Canada to provide a certain amount of leadership on how safety standards are going to be maintained in their industry. Is that not the case, and is that not going to be the case going forward, with small carriers in Canada as long as we can look forward?

[Marc Grégoire]

Certainly, yes. But it's not only our role to help industry, because we are the regulator, after all.

We certainly need to provide some help, certainly we need to provide material--lots of documentation--to help them get started. We're also working with their associations, whether it be, as Don mentioned earlier, ATAC or the Helicopter Association of Canada or AQTA. We're working with them so they can help their smaller members follow the course.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

You know, this is a competitive business, as well. What I understand from talking to small operators is that in many cases they appreciate the inspectors because inspectors provide professionalism to their staff as well. This is not a one-way street where inspectors are considered to be a hindrance; they're also considered to be very important to the development of each individual small company and how it deals with safety. Isn't that the reality of the inspection system that we've used in Canada for many years, very successfully?

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

We totally agree. Of course the inspectors have a big role to play, and we understand our leadership role in terms of instilling a safety culture in the aviation industry, small or large. That being said, the government resources and the government energy are not sufficient to ensure a safety culture in the aviation industry. Everybody who repairs an airplane, builds an airplane, flies an airplane has a responsibility to make sure their passengers are safe. That's what we're saying. But we do agree with the honourable member: of course we have a big role to play.

[Don Sherritt]

I think your point about culture is extremely important. Regardless of the size of the company, the company needs to make its business decisions. They need to make decisions about their operation, regardless of the size. Making those decisions, and really what the culture is all about, is having the awareness of what hazards or risks are associated with their particular operation. It's the proprietor of the company who is best positioned to make those determinations. When they're making business decisions and making alterations to their organization—bringing on a new aircraft, changing the way they're handling stores, procedures—it's having an understanding and awareness that that change may in fact have an impact on their operation and they need to make that consideration.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

This is why I go back to pilot fatigue. Here, quite clearly, the operators of these small operations know what they're doing with their pilots. If they're allowing this situation to occur where over and over pilots are taking advantage of the rules, moving past where they should be in terms of their involvement in flying on a particular day, in a month, in a year, that's a problem. Because the business decisions get in the way of the safety decisions.

So to say that you're going to create a situation where safety culture takes away from the culture of business survival, which is the case so much in small aviation across this country, I think that's a bit naive.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

Well, we're hoping that flying unsafe airplanes is really not a good business.

[Dennis Bevington, NDP, Western Arctic, NT]

There's a certain culture in the industry of flying, as well, where pilots are of the superman variety. This is the reality of it. I've dealt with small-carrier fliers my whole life through my experience in the north. This is what it is. Now you're saying that it doesn't exist within those companies, that you don't need to ensure that right across this country the small carriers have a consistent culture of safety that takes precedence over business decisions.

[Yaprak Baltacioglu]

I'm sure that the honourable member is really not saying that this culture is a business culture and that's okay and the government has to kind of oversee them.

I think we're saying the same thing. I think we're saying yes, there are cultural issues, especially among the smaller operators. However, a lot of them actually operate very properly. There's a role for the government, but the culture overall is going to have to evolve, and that's what we're working towards. We agree with the honourable member if that's.... I think that's the general sense of his comments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Thank you.

Mr. Mayes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Just to follow up, I like that term “prescriptive regulation”. This is a big country with many regions, and there are challenges with climate and isolation. Isolation might challenge, for instance, recruitment of inspectors. I appreciate the department going across country and getting some input. I'm sure that's been valuable.

As far as the issues in maybe more the isolated parts of Canada, have you heard any specifics about how to address that so that with these standards, which I recognize cannot be compromised, there is some ability for some of these more isolated areas with climate issues that have been able to work with the department?

[Marc Grégoire]

It's very important that Transport Canada ensure that the regulations are enforced throughout the country, and that includes the north. I understand that the situation, the weather sometimes and all of that, is more difficult in very isolated areas, but we must make sure that it is safe for people to fly in and out of those isolated places, as it is safe to do from big cities. Our inspectors regularly do oversight activities with those small operators that go in and out of those small, isolated places.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

To follow up on what Mr. Bevington said, I always remember a few bush pilots I knew in the north. They used to say there were a lot of bold pilots, but not many old bold pilots. I think that is a good indication that they recognize they have safety issues not only for their passengers but for themselves to adhere to.

Concerning the number of inspectors available for this oversight, what action has the ministry taken for recruitment? Once again, I want to get to the challenges, maybe, in some of the more isolated areas for recruitment.

[Marc Grégoire]

The recruitment is actually being done at the local level by our Transport Canada offices across the country. What we have discussed with the civil aviation management team is the importance of getting rid of the vacancies we have now, because it has left a perception that we were reducing the number of inspectors, and that is not so.

I understand that 19 inspectors were hired during the winter. In total, we plan to hire more than 60 before the summer, and the rest of the inspectors by the end of the summer, by August 2010.

[The Chair, Conservative, Merv Tweed]

Mr. Dhaliwal.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Under the SMS, companies provide substantial data to Transport Canada. Is any of this data verified for how reliable it is?

[Marc Grégoire]

Actually, the data is not given to Transport Canada. It has to be analyzed by the airline itself, first and foremost. We go into the company to look at how the data is analyzed, but the company remains proprietary to the data.

I should mention that it is a trend now to try to share safety information, including between countries. This was discussed at the high-level safety conference in Montreal yesterday. As part of finding new ways to improve safety for the future, it is important to find mechanisms and ways to share safety data so that when we find solutions to a problem we can share that solution elsewhere and it's not repeated.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

When we look at safety violations, is Transport Canada aware of any major safety violations with the large carriers within the last two years, and if so, why did it not prosecute?

[Marc Grégoire]

Excuse me, could you explain the acronym that you're using?