Evidence of meeting #7 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:40 a.m.
National Representative, National Office, Canadian Auto Workers
We see it, sir, as another level, as an addition.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
In that sense, we agree with the government. Our position has been that SMS should be an additional layer--
9:45 a.m.
National Representative, National Office, Canadian Auto Workers
But you shouldn't take out--
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
9:45 a.m.
National Representative, National Office, Canadian Auto Workers
Exactly, and that's where I think it's falling down today.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
I appreciate that. We're getting to a difference of opinion here at the table. This committee, of course, as you well know, took up Bill C-6 some time back. Three parties, certainly, were working to make some of the improvements you were suggesting with respect to whistle-blower protection or that kind of non-punitive reporting.
I will remind everyone, for the record, and for those who are watching, that of course it was the NDP that scuttled that legislation. I think that's an important consideration, because we were close to something that I think is very important in this particular area.
9:45 a.m.
NDP
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Mr. Smith, I have a question. What level of inspection is satisfactory to the union? I'm going to presume that you don't support 100% inspection of all classes of aircraft at all times. Some decision has to be made about the level.
Are we fighting to restore the additional union jobs that were lost? Is that the level at which you're going to be able to conclude that we have enough safety in the system? There's a decision at some point that has to be made about resource allocation and the appropriate level of safety. What is that appropriate level of safety, in your mind?
We will start with you, Mr. Smith. Then Mr. Balnis can weigh in on that.
9:45 a.m.
National Representative, National Office, Canadian Auto Workers
Well, as has been said, we can't tell you. We're not the experts in saying how many inspectors are enough. That would be the minister's position--and the people working for the minister.
Last night I listened to the audiotape of the hearing on Tuesday. I am extremely pleased that Transport Canada has taken the position of rehiring those people, bringing those jobs back and increasing the number of inspectors.
They're the ones who need to decide. Transport Canada needs to decide, along with its unionized workforce, or whoever is doing the inspections, how much is enough. I can't tell you. If I could, I would. I can't pick a number out of my head and say that this is enough.
But they know, and they should know, how many are enough to perform the inspections. The inspections, again, will depend on the carrier and what the incidents or occurrences have been with that carrier. I think--
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Let me just step in for a second here, because I don't buy that you don't have some sense of it. You're commending the move to hire back the inspectors, so clearly you believe there is an employment level that is going to be satisfactory and at which point we've achieved safety in this country. You have some opinion of it. I don't buy that you have no opinion of it or can't inform.... Because you've both taken the position that at least hiring back those inspectors would be sufficient enough.
9:45 a.m.
National Representative, National Office, Canadian Auto Workers
It's a good start, sir. I can't tell you how many they would need. We don't deal with the day-to-day operation of Transport Canada and the inspections group there.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Let me ask another question here with respect to the capacity for implementing SMS. Is it fair to differentiate in the capacity between an Air Canada aircraft, let's say, and a smaller aircraft, or a small business jet, for that matter, in terms of the capacity to implement safety management systems?
9:45 a.m.
National Representative, National Office, Canadian Auto Workers
The capacity and the training required would be a time differential between the size of the business being regulated or using SMS. That's part of where the issue might come into play or does come into play--it's the training requirement.
9:45 a.m.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Right. It takes time for those with less capacity to be able to....
9:45 a.m.
National Representative, National Office, Canadian Auto Workers
Yes, with less capacity, or it actually might impede the operations. But in fact, at some carriers, even, it's that taking people out of the operational line, spending time educating them on this piece, and giving them the encouragement to take on and do what's required in SMS is a detriment to the bottom line of an operator.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
If you don't mind, I'd like to pursue that line of questioning a bit further.
Maybe, Mr. Balnis, you might come back into this.
It strikes me that the discussion we've had over the last several years on this is all about changing a culture, and a culture that's in a business, that involves trust. You've heard other witnesses who have come forward and have said, well, the SMS system is a great system. They've said that it fits another layer on top of the mandatory inspections and the sufficient number of inspectors. I think everybody was agreeing on that, but nobody can agree as to what the number is.
Transport Canada actually eliminated some of those inspector positions. They've admitted that they're going to reinstitute them. I had the same problems as Monsieur Laframboise and Monsieur Bevington and others about just where this fits in.
We've had Transport Canada come before us now, and this is where I'd like your comments. They have said, pursuant to what the minister's observations were a couple of weeks ago, that you have small aircraft, some of it owner-operated, and business aircraft. In this area, his impression was--I'm paraphrasing now, so I hope the government members don't get upset--that the trust factor, i.e., the culture of this self-imposed responsibility, hadn't penetrated sufficiently, and so we need to re-regulate, because on the risk assessment and risk management side, people don't know what's good for them.
On the commercial carrier side, the question of trust is a little more difficult. Here, the government has not completely walked away from the on-site inspections, the impromptu inspections, unless I'm wrong, Mr. Balnis. So the culture of whistle-blower legislation, which was another fact that we needed to bring in with SMS, that would get people to report what needed to be done, was essentially beginning to penetrate. So we've had fewer incidences of breach of trust, of examples of a broken sense of responsibility, in the larger commercial carrier business.
Is that a wrong assessment of what's been happening? Ms. Dias or Mr. Smith might want to respond to this, for the mechanics and the maintenance people who actually are supposed to have that first line of defence, and then Mr. Balnis, please.
9:50 a.m.
National Representative, National Office, Canadian Auto Workers
On the maintenance side of the house, there is still inspection. The issues, though, centre around the implementation and operation of a safety management system. For example, in one carrier, how many certified engineers can supervise how many non-certified engineers or apprentices? When an SMS report is filed, it goes into a black hole. They don't hear back.
Mr. Volpe, I don't know if I'm answering your question precisely, but there is still some regulatory oversight.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
What I'm hearing you say--and please correct me--is that from the point of view of those mechanics who are technically responsible for the machinery, there isn't a sense of comfort that their overseers are actually sufficiently responsible to do the right thing, and therefore the regulator's presence will remedy that. That's what I'm hearing.
9:50 a.m.
National Representative, National Office, Canadian Auto Workers
That's fairly correct, Mr. Volpe, but it is also that the regulator is not necessarily aware of what SMS reports have been filed. When they send in the report to the company, the company deals with it however it sees fit. It does not necessarily come back and tell the applicable certifying engineer that this issue has been dealt with and how it's been dealt with. They are not aware that Transport Canada itself is aware of the issue.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
We have a situation where there are the unwilling and the unknowing. We're trying to match them up and it's not connecting.
9:50 a.m.
National Representative, National Office, Canadian Auto Workers
Yes, and when I ask my leadership people at these companies what they think, they say not to throw out SMS, but we need more oversight. It's exactly what they tell me.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
Or more connection, so that those who don't know, i.e., the auditors and the regulators, have a closer relationship with the unwilling, i.e., your overseers, to report and then communicate back and forth. That's what I'm hearing again.
9:50 a.m.
National Representative, National Office, Canadian Auto Workers
That's pretty close to what I'm trying to say, Mr. Volpe.
