Evidence of meeting #9 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was oversight.
A recording is available from Parliament.
10:30 a.m.
Liberal
Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
But they're not using it because everybody has asked for the establishment of a non-punitive reporting system. You've heard it before, with the idea of a new culture, one that says to report everything, that you won't be punished for it because the information you provide is going to make everybody safer.
I know that you've been very direct and forthright, but to then turn around and say, “You know, you have to have enforcement” is a suggestion that the other way doesn't work.
10:30 a.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
I understand the concept of wanting everyone to input into the system and to have everybody's participation. There ought to be no punitive action brought against an individual when it's not done on purpose. We understand that.
But what I'm saying is that in all of what we've seen thus far, there has been no enforcement action whatsoever conducted, whether it be premeditated or not, whether the action of the individual has been premeditated or not. We don't see it.
10:35 a.m.
Liberal
Joe Volpe Liberal Eglinton—Lawrence, ON
There are allegations by those in the industry who say that we--with “we” meaning the workers or whoever, those who are not in high management, the on-the-ground staff, so to speak--fill out the forms, but we don't know what happens because there's no follow-through. In my mind, if that allegation is correct, it means that somebody at the top doesn't have the same kind of culture that they're coming to the committee to tell us exists.
10:35 a.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
I can report that the individual who came to me and said that he had difficulty with a particular flight still hasn't received any answers other than what he received in the first instance, which was, “thank you very much for your input”. That was it.
10:35 a.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
He hasn't heard anything. I'm not privy to what has been decided and neither are you. The only person who would know would be the principal inspector who would have to do some follow-up on that, and then the responsibility seems to lie with that individual.
10:35 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Thank you, Mr. Slunder, for taking part in our committee's business. From one appearance to the next, things evolve.
In your brief, you talk about Transport Canada officials who, on March 30, stated that their goal was to assign 70% of inspectors' time to SMS validations and the remaining 30% to traditional-type inspections. You say the principle is welcome. If this time allocation were applied, if you had the time to proceed in that manner, do you think that would be a reasonable measure?
10:35 a.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
From what I'm told, that's the case. We would have the opportunity to proceed with SMS validations and verify the minute details concerning carriers. However, we're not at that point.
10:35 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
Indeed. You also said the reality was less encouraging. The Staff Instruction states the following:
5.0 OTHER SURVEILLANCE ACTIVITIES 5.1 GENERAL (1) Where surveillance resources are still available after the annual surveillance planning is completed in accordance with CAD SUR-008, other surveillance activities may be planned [...]
If I understand correctly, this suggests that there may be a 70/30 time allocation but that will happen if time permits. Is that correct?
10:35 a.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
That's correct.
We have the impression that, for the inspectors, there is no available time in the case of the 30%.
10:35 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
That's what troubles me. Mr. Grégoire, who represented Transport Canada, told us he was doing everything he could to increase the number of inspectors. Do you think that's true?
10:35 a.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
I can't really speak for Mr. Grégoire, but 20 pilots were hired last year to work at the department, but we lost 27. So we lost seven. I'm willing to believe they want to hire people, but 20 at a time isn't enough.
10:35 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
What's the problem, in your view? Is it salary, compensation, the fact that it's not competitive?
10:35 a.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
There are a number of reasons. I believe there's a major shortage of pilots. I can give you an example. A few years ago, when the airline was going bankrupt, people who lost their jobs tried to find work at Transport Canada. That's no longer the case. When Skyservice went bankrupt, we didn't receive calls from individuals looking for work at the department. Fewer people are available. In addition, the hiring system for pilots takes a lot of time.
10:35 a.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
Yes. I'm also not sure the qualifications required of candidates are currently available. There has to have a lot of knowledge on safety management systems and risk management. However, pilots from outside the organization generally haven't worked—
10:40 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
They don't know that. They haven't receiving training in the field.
10:40 a.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
Exactly. It may be different for Mr. Mignault, since he was directly involved in the field, but that's not the case in general. So it's harder to find qualified people.
10:40 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
In the case of the 27 pilots who left, they were probably people who were retiring. That's even more disturbing.
10:40 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
We're told that, within a few years, there will be massive departures as a result of retirement. That's somewhat the message I'm sending you.
10:40 a.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
Yes. The research by the demographer Ms. Duxbury, which we commissioned, has shown us the extent of the problem.
10:40 a.m.
Bloc
Mario Laframboise Bloc Argenteuil—Papineau—Mirabel, QC
That leads me back to the entire principle of the safety management system. As you know, we sent out alarm signals concerning the takeover of the safety management system by the Canadian Business Aviation Association. The representatives had some questions, but it was simply the Transportation Safety Board that observed it was simply a case of negligence. In the context of the safety management system, businesses were left to their own devices. You've already underscored that situation.
10:40 a.m.
National Chair, Canadian Federal Pilots Association
Yes, we had expressed our fears and submitted those complaints to the committee.
