Evidence of meeting #32 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was s-4.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Luc Bourdon  Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Alexandre Roger

April 24th, 2012 / 8:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure, and Communities' meeting number 32.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, April 5, 2012, the orders of the day are the consideration of Bill S-4, An Act to amend the Railway Safety Act and to make consequential amendments to the Canada Transportation Act.

Joining us today, making almost a regular appearance before this committee, is the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure, and Communities, the Honourable Denis Lebel. Joining us from the department is Luc Bourdon, director general of rail safety.

Thank you for appearing. I think you know the routine here. We will have some presentation comments and then we'll go to questions from the committee.

Mr. Minister.

8:35 a.m.

Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean Québec

Conservative

Denis Lebel ConservativeMinister of Transport

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, Mr. Bourdon, and members.

Thank you for the opportunity to be here to discuss these proposed amendments to the Railway Safety Act. This committee already has a high level of familiarity and engagement with these amendments and your continued support to improve the safety of our railway system is appreciated.

As you know, these proposed amendments were previously reviewed by this committee when they were presented to the House as Bill C-33 last spring. At that time, after several weeks of comprehensive discussion and analysis, all parties agreed unanimously to support the amendments, with one minor change related to safety reporting. Although that approved version of the bill died on the Order Paper when the election was called, the same amendments, with this committee's approved changes, were tabled in the Senate as Bill S-4, where they were again approved virtually unchanged and resubmitted to the House.

During second reading on March 13, we again heard many supportive comments from honourable members on the other side of the House. In brief, all parties once again expressed their strong support for the bill.

I believe the New Democratic Party member from Vancouver—Kingsway summed up the general feeling of the House when he referred to Bill S-4 as “...an excellent piece of legislation...that has gained the buy-in of industry, labour and government. ... It is a solid piece of legislation.”

The list of members who expressed their strong support for Bill S-4 goes on. Every member who spoke in the chamber agreed that this bill enhances rail safety, has the support of many stakeholders, has been widely debated and analyzed, and must be passed in a timely manner.

I must say, as the Minister of Transport, I deeply appreciate this enthusiastic support from all corners of the political spectrum. Everybody agrees on the importance of a safer rail industry for our economy and our communities. We all recognize that the industry is rapidly changing and that the Railway Safety Act needs to be updated accordingly. We all agree that the amendments, which have already been consulted on, debated, and unanimously approved by committee—not once, but twice—are the appropriate means to help ensure Canadians can reap the full benefits of a safe railway system. Better safety is clearly the objective that we all support.

The bill, as noted in the House, is a strong one. It is timely, it is thorough, and it is firmly focused on important and achievable improvements to our rail safety regime. I think much of the strength of this bill comes from the high level of stakeholder consultation that both preceded and followed its introduction to the House.

The initial Railway Safety Act review, which was launched in 2007, included input from the entire spectrum of railway interests, including the railways themselves, their shippers, their suppliers and their unions, as well as federal, provincial and municipal governments, national associations, independent researchers and the public. Essentially, all of the groups in our country were consulted.

Everybody had something to say, and we listened closely to their concerns. This bill is our comprehensive response. We identified the issues, we consulted on alternatives with the key players, and we subsequently took action with Bill C-33, and now with Bill S-4, to ensure that the safety concerns of Canadians are being properly addressed. We all seem to agree that they are. The member from Chambly—Borduas said during second reading that the NDP unabashedly supports the bill. Similarly, the member from Markham—Unionville said that “...the Liberal Party will certainly be supporting the bill”.

Speaking personally, I must say that I'm proud of this legislation. I am proud of it because it contains an effective blueprint for better safety in the rail industry. I am also proud of it because it shows how effective our parliamentary system can be when we decide to work together for the national interest. The net result is solid, seamless, and practical legislation like Bill S-4. I would like to remind you of some of the most important amendments in this bill.

First and foremost, Bill S-4 will improve railway safety in Canada by increasing the regulator's authority for stronger oversight and enforcement.

For one thing, these new authorities will allow the introduction of safety-based railway operating certificates for all railways. This means that every federally regulated railway in the country will have to demonstrate how they meet the safety standards set by the operating certificate before they begin operations.

This bill also provides the regulator with the authority to issue administrative monetary penalties when non-compliance with railway regulations is found. These monetary penalties have a very positive impact on safety and have already proven themselves effective in other modes of transport such as marine and aviation.

In addition, your approval of Bill S-4 will allow us to raise existing judicial penalty levels which were established 20 years ago and are now badly out of date. Raising these levels will make them equivalent to other modes and provide an important additional tool for our safety compliance and enforcement toolbox.

One other key component of these amendments is the significantly stronger focus they place on railway accountability and the need for effective railway safety management systems. With these amendments in place, railways will be required to appoint a senior executive to be responsible for safety issues. They will also be required to establish non-punitive reporting systems so that employees can raise safety concerns without fear of reprisal. In addition, railway companies will need to demonstrate how they continuously monitor and assess the level of safety of their operations.

These are critical steps for the development of an effective safety culture, and both the railway companies and the unions have expressed their strong support for these measures.

In addition to these key improvements, S-4 will also clarify the minister's authority related to national railway matters and expand regulation-making authorities, which will enable us to implement requirements for environmental management plans and emission data collection.

In sum, the proposed amendments before you today will significantly reinforce and modernize the Railway Safety Act to reflect the needs of this generation and those to follow. Railways are the backbone of our economy. As such, they are an important part of our history and our future. It is our shared responsibility to ensure they remain safe.

As we all know from the recent tragedy in Burlington, even one accident is one too many. We cannot afford to hesitate. The time to move forward is now.

In conclusion, I would like to once again thank all parties for their ongoing support. I would also like to thank this committee again for the opportunity to be here. I deeply appreciate your high level of engagement on this bill and all transport and infrastructure issues.

We will be happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you, Mr. Minister.

Ms. Chow.

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Good morning, Mr. Minister.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Good morning.

8:45 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

It's good to see you here.

I'm glad this bill is finally in front of us. I'm very happy that we have a chance to deal with this Railway Safety Act. It's been in front of committees several times.

We know that the voice recorder and the positive train control system will improve the safety of both passenger and freight trains. My concern is that VIA Rail has had one-third of capital projects cut in terms of funding, and the ongoing annual cut is at 4%. I believe it's close to $20 million that VIA Rail is going to lose every year from the government.

This recent talk about privatization of their profitable lines would make matters worse. Even if they want to put in the voice recorder in the locomotive cab, and I hope they will soon, and serious consideration is given to the positive train control system, they won't have the money to install them.

How do we go about giving VIA Rail the financial muscle to improve its safety system?

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

There are so many things in your questions.

We didn't cut money for security and safety in the operations of VIA Rail. We cut...it was the end of the economic action plan investments we made. We invested $923 million to help VIA Rail have safer services, and you voted against all of that. That's the end of the economic action plan. That's it. Those aren't different things.

About voice recorders, as you know, in 2009 the Railway Safety Act working group wanted to discuss that. The possibility of legal charter issues was raised, depending on voluntary and regulatory programs. Unions expressed concern and opposition to locomotive voice recorders if used for compliance monitoring by the railways.

Immediately after the incident in Burlington I asked the committee, to be sure we have a quick answer on that.... The advisory council on rail safety is re-examining the possibility of mandatory voice recorders in locomotive cabs. Consultations are under way. They will report back to me as soon as possible. I'm looking forward to receiving their recommendations. They already have had some meetings about that.

In the U.S.A., they don't have the obligation to have voice recorders, but due to the fact that in the U.S.A. they have a positive train system, they are discussing having them. But in the U.S.A. at the moment, they have a lot of problems in implementing that. It's supposed to be in effect in 2015. That's the information I have.

I think they will delay that until 2020, Mr. Bourdon?

8:45 a.m.

Luc Bourdon Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport

They're trying to.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Yes, they're trying to do that. They have a lot of problems with implementing that. Transport Canada is following this issue very closely, but there they are having many problems in implementing it, so we don't have any assurance, for the moment, that it will help us. We continue to follow that very closely, for sure, and their experience and the technical challenges that will likely delay the implementation in the U.S.A. are of big concern to us.

But that's not about the money VIA Rail had around that. In the U.S.A., they think it will cost around $13 billion to implement it. That's very, very expensive.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

They have a lot more trains than we do.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

In the U.S.A. it's $13 billion to implement that. For the moment, we think we have to continue to invest in security and safety, but that's not the best way to invest our money at the moment.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Would you support mandating voice recorders, rather than making it voluntary right now, if there's a motion here? It has been recommended by the Transportation Safety Board for many years now. There have been discussions. The union tells me they're not opposed to it; that's what they said to me privately. If that was the stumbling block, I see no reason why you wouldn't support making it mandatory. Or would you?

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Which were the reasons in 2009, when they said no. It's the same. It's not the time for it. The time for it is to let the advisory council on rail safety do its job. It is re-examining the possibility of mandatory voice recorders at the moment. It will give us a report. I expect it very soon, as soon as possible. After that, we'll take the decision with unions and all our partners that we have already involved in the Bill S-4 process.

8:50 a.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

But it could be another five years, three years; for many years we've been talking about voice recorders. Your advisory council has been seized of this file for years, and still there has been no action. Accident after accident—we can't get to the bottom of them because we just don't know what happens in the locomotive cabs.

So why not make it mandatory? You personally said it is something you support. The transport department supports it. Why not make it mandatory? I don't understand the hesitation.

Do you have a deadline? Have you set a deadline for the advisory committee in saying that we must, by a certain time, have a decision, or if not, you're going to mandate it? Are you planning that kind of action?

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

That's very important, but we have to pass Bill S-4. I'm the fourth transport minister working on this bill. Minister Cannon deposited it. We had Minister Baird and Minister Strahl. I'm the fourth one. I don't want to have more delays on Bill S-4.

It's not for me, but for the Canadian population and for the security of our transport system, we must have Bill S-4 passed as soon as we can. I hope everybody will agree to that.

About voice recorders, we are on the way. I'm sure you will follow the issue. It was important in 2006 and 2009. It's still important today. In the U.S.A., it's not mandatory. We will continue to see what's best for our country's interests. We will continue to follow that. For the moment, I will wait for the report of the advisory council.

Go ahead, Mr. Bourdon.

8:50 a.m.

Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport

Luc Bourdon

Just to answer your question, at the moment what we're waiting for is legal advice on who is allowed to listen to these recordings. What they've tried to achieve in the past few years was probably voluntary agreement, whereas the union and the company would agree on a protocol that probably the recording could be used for purposes other than disciplinary action, such as proficiency testing. Even the TSB at this time is not sure whether these recordings are privileged to the TSB only.

They should be in a position within about two weeks to give us final legal advice. Without that legal advice, it's very hard to get the working group together to work on that issue, because they don't have clear parameters. After we have that, and let's say only the TSB is allowed to listen to these tapes, we'll know better where we're going with this.

It can lead to safety improvement based on what you find on these tapes, but for the most part, it's an investigation tool. There are only a few accidents. For all the derailments that occur past the locomotive, usually you will not get any voice indication that something has gone wrong, because the train goes into emergency. The crew just stops and walks back in the train.

We're seriously looking into it. Honestly, if the legal advice comes back that only TSB can have access to these tapes, we may have no option at the end other than regulating.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Thank you.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Didn't you have some words about the PTC?

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Be very brief, please.

8:55 a.m.

Director General, Rail Safety, Department of Transport

Luc Bourdon

We'll come back in a few minutes.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed

Go ahead, Mr. Coderre.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

Thank you for giving me the floor.

Minister, I too think that Bill S-4 should be adopted as quickly as possible.

Mr. Chair, I want to salute my Senate colleagues who have done a remarkable job. Since all our amendments were adopted, this time the bill will not die on the Order Paper; it must pass. Therefore, we will not be introducing any other amendments. As my colleague from Markham said, we agree that this bill must be adopted.

Minister, we will test you to some extent this morning by asking you a few questions, for the benefit of the thousands of people watching you on TV. It is our duty to ask concrete questions regarding the consequences this bill will have on safety. Are there enough inspectors to ensure enforcement?

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

There is a sufficient number of inspectors. We have increased the budget by $72 million over the past five years in order to increase the number of inspectors. Some $15 million was added permanently. You are correct, sir, in saying that the bill will allow Transport Canada to improve its oversight capacity to ensure enforcement of the act and will increase the department's powers. It also enhances the role of rail safety management systems for railway companies. Safety is extremely important to us, and we have the teams needed for that purpose.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC

This means that you are increasing the number of inspectors for that purpose.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Denis Lebel Conservative Roberval—Lac-Saint-Jean, QC

Mr. Bourdon, could you talk about the inspectors?