Evidence of meeting #6 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
You referenced it, so I'm curious if you happen to have any—
4:55 p.m.
National President, Canadian Union of Public Employees
But your broad question is a good one. Canada is spending less, as a percentage of the overall wealth in the economy, than at any time in the last 50 years.
By the way, I don't ascribe that simply to the current government. There's been a crunching down of spending.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
It's hard to believe that's the case when all levels of government have been growing their spending faster than nominal GDP over the last decade. It's hard to believe we're at an all-time low, with that having been the case.
5 p.m.
Toby Sanger Senior Economist, Canadian Union of Public Employees
In the past few years there has been an increase in total public spending as a share of GDP. That's largely because the economy has gone down in the past few years. But prior to the economic crisis, public spending as a share of the total economy had indeed dropped to the lowest rate it had been in many decades.
Now, I think there's some confusion there, because the federal government has increased its transfers. So what you may see is a lot of double-counting. The federal government may be increasing some of its spending, but a lot of that goes to the provincial governments. Then you see the provincial government also increasing spending by that amount.
There's only one taxpayer, but a lot of that, as you said, is the same amount of money. If you look at total levels of spending, it has dropped to a very low portion. That's partly because a lot of the services have been downloaded to municipal governments, and I think Paul has made this point.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
They haven't been downloaded by the federal government. There's been nothing downloaded by the federal government in over a decade.
5 p.m.
Senior Economist, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Well, I wouldn't necessarily agree. There have been reductions in spending in a lot of different areas, which municipalities have had to pick up.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
There hasn't been downloading from the federal government to the provinces in at least a decade.
5 p.m.
Senior Economist, Canadian Union of Public Employees
There have been reductions in spending by the federal government in various areas.
5 p.m.
Senior Economist, Canadian Union of Public Employees
It might be immigrant settlement, and larger cities certainly pick that up.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
No, that's not true. There have been no reductions.
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
National President, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Listen, it wasn't your government, but in 1995, in another period of time to deal with....
5 p.m.
National President, Canadian Union of Public Employees
Well, the Canada Assistance Plan.... This is the first recession. We're dealing with the first recession since 1995.
5 p.m.
National President, Canadian Union of Public Employees
And getting rid of the Canada Assistance Plan has had a devastating impact on municipalities.
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Mr. Chair, I would like to feel that this is the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities and not a court of justice where questions are being asked every three seconds without giving the witness a chance to answer. It might be preferable to do that at a meeting of the Standing Committee on Finance to try to see whether the witness knows his budget. With all due respect, I think we should calm down a bit here.
5 p.m.
Conservative
5 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Of course, the honourable member does not want the witness to talk about the enormous cuts the Liberals made in the 1990s.
In any case, I have the right to ask my questions.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
In 15 years as a member, I have never raised the issue of relevancy.
In 1993, we inherited a deficit of $42 billion that was handed down to us by the Conservatives. My intervention had to do with courtesy. It did not concern the substance, but the way in which questions were being put.
5 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Merv Tweed
Thank you.
Mr. Watson on the original point of order, and then I'm going to rule.