Evidence of meeting #20 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 41st Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was goods.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
The figure is not a problem for me. I want to know what your criteria are in assessing improvements in rail transportation safety.
Executive Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer, Canadian National Railway Company
The criteria is very simple: if you have any incidents at all with tank cars that are moving the product. If there was an incident, that gets counted as an incident. It doesn't have to be a major incident. It could be any incident that was reported, very minor, but it still was an incident.
NDP
Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Mr. Creel, you talked about prevention and you said that you invest in improving technology, the human factor, training, and so forth. You mentioned changes in the culture of safety.
There are two parts to my question. I would like you to quantify your investment in the technology and in the human aspect.
As far as the technology component is concerned, you referred to cameras, but there is also the automatic braking system. You have refused to adopt that system in the past, and I would like to know why. I would also like to know how much it would cost to implement such a system.
President and Chief Operating Officer, Canadian Pacific Railway
To make sure I understand the question, are you asking how much we invest in people, training, process, and technology? I don't have the number in front of me, but it's in excess of double-digit millions of dollars through technology, through people, and through training.
When you speak to PTC, it is a technology that is undeveloped and yet to be developed. It has been mandated in U.S. operations. Once it's fully deployed, we estimate it's going to be in excess of $350 million invested.
NDP
Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Regarding the investments you have made, if you do not have those figures with you, could you send them to the clerk of the committee?
President and Chief Operating Officer, Canadian Pacific Railway
I would not hesitate at all. Yes we will.
NDP
Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Thank you.
You also talked about products that you would not want to transport.
Could you give us a list of those products?
President and Chief Operating Officer, Canadian Pacific Railway
We would be happy to provide that list to the committee.
President and Chief Operating Officer, Canadian Pacific Railway
Any TIH and PIH, toxic inhalants and poisonous inhalants, things like anhydrous ammonia, chlorine, something that we must have to make our water safe to drink that is a very toxic chemical which, if it were to compromise itself in transit, it could be very catastrophic.
Executive Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer, Canadian National Railway Company
May I add something to that comment, please.
In the Canadian economy, these products that we ship are necessary. We use them in a number of products in Canada, such as chlorine in drinking water. It has to get to market.
How is it going to get to market? I'm not asking it as a flippant question, but somehow it has to get there. It is going to go by truck or by rail, but it has to move from the few plants that are producing that kind of product.
If somebody asks CN, would we like not to transport it? We've been transporting those products safely for years, and we think that we can continue to transport them safely.
Now, as a business person, sometimes you'd like to say, “I don't want to handle them.” But where are they going to go? They're going to go by truck or they're going to go by another method, because we have not found a way to get rid of all those products, whether in building materials, in drinking water—
NDP
Isabelle Morin NDP Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
I am going to interrupt you now, Mr. Vena, because my speaking time is limited.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
You're actually out of time, but he can finish.
Are you finished?
Executive Vice-President and Chief Operating Officer, Canadian National Railway Company
I am. I'm sorry.
Conservative
Conservative
Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON
Thank you to our witnesses for being here today and for providing us with very helpful presentations and testimony.
Mr. Bourque, I want to start with a couple of questions for you.
We have spent a lot of time today and in previous days as well talking about sharing information with municipal officials and with first responders respecting the transportation of dangerous goods. In the fall, we struck an important agreement with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities in this regard.
From your perspective, is this information-sharing process working? Is it working well? What is the reaction of municipal officials, in your experience, with respect to this process of sharing information?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Railway Association of Canada
Thanks for asking that question, because I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding around this. I was quite close to it, because I was involved with Transport Canada, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, the fire chiefs, and the industry in putting together the agreement that we have.
What is very clear is that fire chiefs in this country are not asking for live information. They are looking for the kind of information that is in the directive, which is current information but from the previous year, and to be told about trends. That's why it's divided on a quarterly basis.
Short lines, if there is a significant change, have to inform the municipality immediately, so the municipalities have the information that they require to conduct training of their firefighters in the event of an accident.
To answer your question, I think it is more than adequate, because the industry has stepped up and gone beyond this with programs that the railways have rolled out, which you've heard about today, of going out to municipalities and providing additional information, opening up the dialogue, making sure that people have all of the contact names, etc.
I have heard that a couple of municipalities have seemed dissatisfied with not getting the information immediately. I think there has been a miscommunication somewhere. At the level of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities and the Association of Canadian Fire Chiefs, the folks who are experts in this area are absolutely satisfied with the construct that we have put forward.
Conservative
Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON
Would you agree that it's important to find with this process of information sharing a proper balance between full information transparency and at the same time safeguarding security?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Railway Association of Canada
It wasn't so long ago that the RCMP foiled a plot by al-Qaeda agents in this country to blow up a VIA train. We shouldn't take it for granted that because we haven't had a serious security incident in this country lately it isn't an ongoing threat.
We would jeopardize our trade relationship with the United States, who feel very strongly that we shouldn't provide that kind of live information. I think it would be very dangerous and irresponsible. I would suggest that you invite the fire chiefs here, because what you'll hear is that they are getting the information they require to conduct training. They've heard from the railways. They know what we're carrying.
We're providing them with assistance. I mentioned earlier some of the training that we provide. We also have dangerous goods specialists within the Railway Association of Canada. Those dangerous goods specialists are out providing information, training firefighters, and so on.
Vice-President, Safety and Sustainability, Canadian National Railway Company
I'd like to add one element with regard to what Mr. Bourque was identifying. When we came together with the Federation of Canadian Municipalities, this was a want with respect to the railroads.
I don't think there was any hesitation to provide the specific information to ensure preparedness for the first responders, and the Canadian Association of Fire Chiefs was at the table. We have begun rolling it out. It's detailed information with regard to how many carloads move by commodity by quarter of 2013. This enables them to ensure they have the right level of training and/or plan further training.
In the case of dangerous goods, we—CN and CP—don't get large fluctuations of the different commodities; we're fairly stable. We may see some commodities rise—crude is a little bit on the rise—but at the end of the day, whether the train has seven cars or whether it has six cars, the training preparedness of those emergency responders remains the same.
It's important that we provide that information. We're very much in agreement with providing it, and the feedback we have been getting has been positive.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Larry Miller
Thank you. Your time has expired, Mr. Braid.
Mr. Watson, you have five minutes.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Mr. Vena, you told us that you owned 40 DOT-111s, that they are now gone, and that you lease 118.
Mr. Creel, how many DOT-111s are in CP's inventory, both owned and leased?
President and Chief Operating Officer, Canadian Pacific Railway
It's approximately 200.