Transport Committee on Oct. 28th, 2014

[Robert Lewis-Manning]

To answer your question as briefly as possible, in order to get all vessels involved in a safety system, number one, they're required to be part of a safety system now through regulations, whether they are international operators or domestic operators. In order to increase the ability of an operator or an owner to be part of a dynamic safety regime, such as a safety management system, we are supportive of having that as a regulated entity by Transport Canada. I am not trying to tell you that there is a problem right now, and you referenced a specific region, but I appreciate that there is development happening in that region and that the ports and operators in that region take that development seriously. SMS would be one further step to providing confidence that this is indeed happening.

I hope that answers your question.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Yes. Thank you.

With a vessel-based management system, what will the specific impact of increased traffic be?

I mentioned the St. Lawrence, but the same could apply to any waterway anywhere.

When marine traffic increases significantly, how do we deal with that on the ships?

[Robert Lewis-Manning]

Are you making a correlation between having an SMS and increased traffic?

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Yes.

[Robert Lewis-Manning]

I think that the two work well together. If marine traffic increases, no matter where that increase is, having a safety management system enables and leverages a culture that is mandated through a process to also learn, so the risk assessment process, the learning, and the change in innovation are enabled by having a safety management system. The two work well together.

[Isabelle Morin, NDP, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Okay.

Looking at this another way, Canada signs international conventions. In 1978, Canada signed the IMO Convention on Standards of Training, Certification and Watchkeeping for Seafarers.

Could you tell me how all the training provided is applied? How will it contribute to the development of safety management systems? In addition, how does Canada make sure that it is applied properly?

[Robert Lewis-Manning]

Thank you for that question. There isn't a simple answer. I'll try to make it as simple as I can.

The convention, the STCW that you refer to, has just recently had an additional protocol, and Transport Canada has implemented amended regulations to reflect the changes in that protocol to STCW. The enforcement of that convention with the additional protocol is the responsibility of Transport Canada, which it does through its inspection regime and/or class societies, depending on which regulation it is. I have confidence that it is being achieved.

I think your question also asks if part of that is related to safety management systems. From my understanding of it, it is not at this point. STCW deals primarily with the certification of people and their capabilities and the standards of their employment in ships.

[The Chair, Conservative, Larry Miller]

I'm sorry, your time has expired.

We'll now move to Mr. Braid for five minutes.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our experts for being here today.

Mr. Chomniak, I want to start with a question or two for you. In earlier responses you've had this concern that Transport Canada is carrying out inspections of ships but third party classification organizations are doing the audits of the safety management systems. You think perhaps there's a disconnect there and that maybe we can explore the possibility of bringing those two things together.

I just want to ask if you could help me understand the difference between the two, between the Transport Canada inspection and the SMS audit. Draw us a kind of picture of the checklist for each, if you will. How are they different? How are they the same?

[Capt John Chomniak]

The Transport Canada inspector comes and inspects either the crew or the ship itself. The classification society would come to inspect the SMS and audit the different processes and sections within the SMS unless the classification society were inspecting the vessel as well, but the classification societies have the ability to say whether or not they wish to bring those specific vessels into their association because their charters will limit the vessels that they are able to take.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Are they two completely different and independent processes? Are there any similarities between the two?

[Capt John Chomniak]

A lot of the SMS will go through the different aspects of the ship, and are very safety oriented, as well having the crew there to perform anything with the SMS.

Probably the biggest difference is the cost factor between the two. The cost for the classification society, from what I have seen, is somewhere around tenfold what the TC inspection process would cost.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Okay. And much of your concern centres around that, around the cost impact to these businesses.

[Capt John Chomniak]

Yes. We fully believe in the process of the SMS; it's the process leaving Transport and the cost being charged to the individual.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Great. Thank you.

In your opening presentation, I think you said that Canada has the safest, or one of the safest, marine systems in the world.

[Capt John Chomniak]

Correct.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

That's obviously very encouraging and reassuring to hear.

I wonder if you can help us understand in terms of a comparison between Canada and other countries or other jurisdictions. In other countries, when a tragedy with respect to a passenger vessel occurs, what are the gaps there? What are the protections we have in Canada that make our system safer from a regulatory perspective, from an SMS perspective or whatever the case may be? What are the differences and what are the gaps? And why is it so much better here?

[Capt John Chomniak]

Probably one of the biggest ones in the news today is the tragic loss of the South Korean ferry, where the government is looking at the death penalty for the captain. Would that happen here? Let's sure hope not.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

We don't have the death penalty.

[Capt John Chomniak]

Exactly.

With regard to the process in which an inspection is dealt with, the safety of those concerned in operating vessels here in Canada is extremely high. We know it is our livelihood, and we want to have the safest vessels operating.

For me to speak on another country's inspection processes, I couldn't do that, I'm sorry. But even if you look at our closest country, the U.S., the coast guard inspection processes in the U.S. and Canada are very similar in nature. As a matter of fact, many of them are following down the road beside one another to ensure that those processes become very similar.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Between Canada and the U.S.?

[Capt John Chomniak]

Correct.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

So they should, because Canadian ships are going into U.S. waters and vice versa, right? There needs to be harmonized processes to the extent possible. Would you agree with that?

[Capt John Chomniak]

I would. For some things there's an economic look at the regulation for the businesses at hand to ensure that there isn't undue stress on the business because of that.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Great. Thank you.

Mr. Lewis-Manning, in your opening presentation I believe you said that the current safety regime is appropriate with respect to the possibility of increased transportation of petrochemicals. Could you just explain why you think that is the case?