Evidence of meeting #115 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was airports.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Last, could you comment on the number of jobs associated with more nighttime flights, since you have the operators and people in the airport?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mississauga Board of Trade
We know that the area around the GTA supports in excess of 130,000 jobs. Just at the airport, there are 44,000 jobs. Mississauga, Brampton and all of Toronto have benefited from that as well. The economic impact of the airport being where it is has certainly benefited all of the communities around the airport.
The airport is not a big, bad economic machine that doesn't care about the community. It does a lot for the community, including—
Liberal
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I want to thank all of the witnesses for joining us here today.
As my colleague who kicked it off has said, I think this conversation has highlighted the tension between competing values. When it comes to finding solutions, it's not as easy as we might think.
Mr. Novak, you made the observation that Europe does a much better job than we do here in Canada. You also suggested that we need to take a look at what is happening in Australia.
Mr. Kuess, you mentioned that there are some best practices out there that need to be looked at.
I need you to describe what some of those are. What are the first things that we should be looking at, in terms of what's happening in Europe? Canada has a much smaller population than Europe, so if Europe has found a way to manage this issue, we would benefit from knowing what Europe is doing and what some of those best practices are.
Associate Professor, University of Windsor, As an Individual
Was that question for me?
Conservative
Director, Community Alliance for Air Safety
I'd love to comment.
Frankfurt is an excellent example. If you compare Frankfurt airport to the greater Toronto airport, they're similar. When they were going through some changes about how they were going to flow traffic into the airport, they did a lot of studies and reports. They were studies and reports that we had actually done in the past. There's a lot of data out there. They were able to achieve zero night flights. They shut it down. The airport has grown. From the management of Frankfurt airport at the time, the testament was that this was going to tank the airport, that they were going to lose their business and profitability, and that it was not going to be a viable airport. It has actually grown.
In addition, there are other examples. Atlanta is a great example. Denver, Colorado has a great example of a well-planned airport.
To the gentleman who was speaking earlier about Pickering, they did do the impact studies. Excellent planning was done for the Pickering airport. They did their homework and Transport Canada was very involved. We need to utilize that information. It's there. We just have to use it.
Conservative
Associate Professor, University of Windsor, As an Individual
With respect to Europe, what I think they're doing very well is the studies they're conducting to learn more about the problem. When Frankfurt put the moratorium on nighttime flights, the research showed it was not effective from a health perspective. While it did lessen the number of sleep awakenings, the surveys of people within the community showed that the level of annoyance had not changed since the departure of nighttime flights.
What I think they're doing very well in Australia is information sharing, equal engagement between the community and the airports, and the sharing of information much more freely, to the point where the public can go to the airports and ask for specific information or types of information. There are systems in place that allow the airport to facilitate those requests.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you.
I have lived under a flight path for over a decade. My husband has lived there all his life. We purchased his family home and now I've moved and I listen to train whistles. Again, therein lies the tension of what my colleague has raised in terms of municipal planning.
When we talk about moving, building an airport in a more remote area from a community, Mr. Wojcik, I would be interested in hearing what your thoughts are from a business perspective in terms of the impact of that on the business community. While we can perhaps have cargo flown in much farther away from a community, you're then going to have to load it on to trucks, which then fill our roadways. Perhaps we aren't dealing with the emissions in the way we thought we would be by doing that. I'd like to hear from you what the impact of some of those solutions would be on the business community.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mississauga Board of Trade
Certainly, the impact on the business community would be far-reaching. While I recognize that it is a potential solution, it needs to form part of a much longer-term strategy for urban planners to recognize. While we could move those transportation hubs out into unpopulated areas, we get into the areas of environmental impact into those sensitive areas, which does tend to hold up the progress of moving businesses out there. There is the cost of moving businesses out there and, quite rightfully so, how would we get the goods from where they are to where they need to be? Is that through rail? Is that through some other technology that is being studied now that is more environmentally friendly? Those are all considerations. It's not a short-term solution.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
I believe Mr. Badawey is sharing his time with Borys. You'll notice I said Borys.
Please go ahead.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Wojcik, you referred to night hours as being sensitive. Why is that so?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mississauga Board of Trade
I think it's sensitive from the respect that these are hours that everyone believes should be quiet. I refer to them as sensitive because they're hours that are traditionally held to be quiet.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Perhaps I can help you with that.
When I was doorknocking, one of the more poignant moments was in the late morning when a mother came to the door. She had a crying baby. She looked ragged and I said that it obviously was not a good time. She said, “No, I want to talk to you. I wasn't able to sleep all night. My baby was being woken up all night. Planes have been flying overhead all through the night.”
They are sensitive because they seriously impact on the quality of lives of those people who find themselves directly under those flight paths. It's what Mr. Novak referred to, that all of a sudden you go from quiet to this loud rumbling noise. People fall back to sleep and a few minutes later, it happens again.
You referred to good neighbour policy. There are people in places like Markland Wood, which predates the operations. It's a mature neighbourhood that predates the GTAA. People's quality of life has been severely impacted by those night flights.
How does Toronto define nighttime hours?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mississauga Board of Trade
The nighttime flying hours are determined to be from 12:30 a.m. or 00:30 a.m. to 6:30 a.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I would suggest even the definition is a problem. Frankfurt, for instance, which was referenced, has very limited flights between 10 p.m. and 11 p.m. and night flights begin at 11 p.m. and end at 5 a.m., with very limited flights allowed until 6 a.m.
Would you not agree that the definition of what nighttime, that sensitive quiet sleep time for people, should be is probably not reflective of people's sleeping habits?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mississauga Board of Trade
I think that as we move through a more robust economy, sleeping becomes relative to what we're doing. There are people who go to bed at 8 p.m. and get up at 3 a.m. to—
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Mr. Wojcik, I beg to differ. Most of my constituents do sleep when the sun is down. Usually people go to sleep by nine or 10 o'clock.
A lot of these night flight problems began when FedEx moved their operations from the Hamilton Mountain airport, which is on the escarpment above the city of Hamilton and basically in the middle of farmland, so it's already elevated away from the city, in farmland. Pearson undercut Hamilton airport to gain that night flight business. At that point, FedEx had no problem moving their hub and all their operations.
Is that not correct?
October 23rd, 2018 / 9:40 a.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mississauga Board of Trade
I don't know if there's any statistical proof that noise complaints have increased since FedEx has arrived.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
My question is: Is it not correct that the nighttime cargo operations of FedEx, which began this process, was due to Pearson, the GTAA, undercutting Hamilton to gain that business?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mississauga Board of Trade
I don't know that undercutting is a fair term. I will acknowledge that they did end up with the cargo business.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I think there's an obvious opportunity with Hamilton when it comes to all of those nighttime operations—not passenger flights with cargo in the hold. There are literally only five farm fields and five farmhouses in that particular area.
Mr. Kuess, thank you so much for all the work that you're doing on behalf of various communities.
What you pointed out was quite insightful. In fact, the example of Frankfurt, the seventh busiest airport in the world.... Everyone was saying it was going to be disastrous for the economy and the airport was going to go bankrupt. In fact, people still aren't happy about noise during the day, but they actually sleep restfully.
Do you have the data? Would you like to expand on how Frankfurt continues not only to be profitable but increase their profits, notwithstanding the ban on night flights?