Transport Committee on Oct. 30th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Aubin, you have the floor.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to make a comment before I begin my questions. During the presentations by the witnesses who appeared via videoconference, the sound was so bad that it was practically impossible for the interpreters to do their work. When the committee receives guests via videoconference, I wonder whether it would not be worthwhile to do a sound test before the meeting begins to ensure that the communication will be good. That is the end of my comment, and I will leave that with you, Madam Chair.

My questions are for the Aéroports de Montréal, because that is the area I know best. However, I invite the other witnesses to intervene without hesitation if some of the issues speak to them as well.

Some of the points in your presentation were of particular interest to me, such as your statement that you co-operate with many organizations, including Transport Canada. That department is the regulatory body in charge of enforcing acoustic criteria. I have asked about the nature of those acoustic criteria about twelve times. Acoustics are a clear concept for musicians like myself; they are measured in decibels, frequencies, reverberation and even in soundproofing terms. Every time I asked the question, however, no one was able to provide me with any clear acoustic criteria, nor with any scientific numerical standard. Would you, Mr. Massé, be in a position to clarify these acoustic criteria you are attempting to have respected?

[Martin Massé]

Earlier, you spoke of the average noise level used by the WHO.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

That is a 55-decibel level, is it not?

[Martin Massé]

Yes.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[Martin Massé]

But that does not take noise peaks into account.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

It's an average, isn't it?

[Martin Massé]

Yes, obviously, it is an average. When noise peaks, things are different.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

If our average is 80, we have to conclude that we aren't in the right range.

[Martin Massé]

Quite so.

ADM uses two noise indicators: the acoustic level, the energy equivalent sound level or L_eq, and the noise exposure forecast, NEF, which is basically the digital footprint.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Allow me a side note: are these data regarding the NEF accessible in real time on Transport Canada's website, or does the citizens' committee only have access to those statistics four times a year when the committee meets?

[Martin Massé]

Your question is relevant. No, that data is not available in real time, since the NEF value is determined periodically, on an annual basis I believe. That figure is provided in ADM's annual report and on its website.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Fine.

With regard to the number of complaints, I see that close to one quarter concern night flights. Among the administrative or general choices made by a business, how can we explain that an airport like the Frankfort airport—which is far from small—chooses simply to prohibit night flights, whereas this seems completely impossible for Montreal airports or others in Canada?

[Martin Massé]

This choice results from the balance that must be achieved between what the clientele asks for regarding flights, and what the airline companies can do. I don't know whether anyone has ever spoken to you about double rotation. That concept allows an airline company to use an aircraft to do the same route twice, in four segments, and thus serve a particular destination at a reasonable price, particularly sun destinations. This means that the aircraft has to fly as long as possible given the time it takes to prepare these double rotations in the winter, which probably includes two de-icings. So the point is to balance what the population is asking for, what the passenger is asking for, what the airline companies want, and, of course, what our weather permits, generally speaking.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you for that clarification. We nevertheless note that the number of one-time exceptions continues to increase. Does ADM have a strategy to reduce that number in the context of the large increase—I wouldn't say exponential, but it is really considerable—in air traffic? Is it plausible to think that one-time exemption requests will increase at the same rate as air traffic?

[Martin Massé]

Several points need to be looked at.

First, an increase in the number of passengers does not necessarily lead to a proportional increase in the number of flights.

Secondly, air fleets are being renewed, as my colleague from Calgary, I believe, mentioned. Certain aircraft like Boeing 767s are being taken out of circulation and replaced with new-generation planes. Our studies show that the slight increase in the number of aircraft movements due to the renewal of those fleets over the coming years will not mean an increase in noise levels.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

In the same vein...

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I'm sorry, Mr. Aubin, you're overtime.

We now go to Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a number of questions, so I'll ask for relatively short answers. If you want to expand on any of them, please feel free to submit a note to us, so it can go into the record.

We'll head out west, first and foremost.

Good morning, Ms. Murray and Mr. Cheng.

People in every community—including some in our own—that receives news that Amazon is going to open up a great big new facility jump up and down, rub their hands together and say, oh boy. Then the people at the airport say, okay, here it comes, more aircraft with more cargo, etc.

I'm wondering if, in the context of metro Vancouver, YVR has any kind of strategic collaboration with Abbotsford to see if it's possible to manage not only the noise issue of additional cargo flights, but also time shifting to make sure that they're arriving at less sensitive times, and perhaps to consider the ground transportation that inevitably comes after a cargo plane lands.

I have a general question. Do you work with Abbotsford to look at the larger strategic issues in our region? Could you speak to growth as well?

[Anne Murray]

Sure.

We work quite closely with all the airports in the region. There are a number of different airports. We just updated our long-term master plan, which looks out 20 years and looks at how we can manage airspace and the airports.

In terms of cargo and packages, we find that at Vancouver airport the majority of cargo comes in the belly of passenger aircraft. We see that growing. We actually have only one cargo freighter aircraft.

The packages are on relatively small aircraft and they're going in and out. We do have good connections from a ground transportation facility working with the local regional transit.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

It may be worthwhile keeping an eye on that, because you're definitely going to see a lot more bigger packages, especially with Amazon. Lord knows what they're ordering from that company these days.

We heard from a previous panel that sometimes an airport will prepare noise exposure forecasts to give the community a heads-up as to what may be coming with changes.

First, does YVR also provide this kind of service to the community? Do you ever get requests for this from a community that's looking to, for instance, build more housing in a given area on a flight path?

Do you ever hear of developments and proactively offer this kind of information so that the community is aware before things are done that there are some considerations here, particularly with respect to noise?

[Anne Murray]

Yes, we prepare noise exposure forecast contours, and we look out 20-plus years. We provide those to the local municipalities. We have worked with the City of Richmond and encouraged them to require noise insulation information in advance to potential purchasers, and really look to reduce the effect of noise on people choosing to live near airports. It's to give them information so they can make choices about where they want to live.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Having said all that, do you ever hear of a new development somewhere and go, boy, here comes trouble?

[Anne Murray]

Land use planning decisions are the purview of local municipalities. I have had conversations with some of our local municipalities and said that they really need to consider whether it's wise and advisable to have those individuals moving into new residential accommodation near airports.

It is Transport Canada that creates the guidelines. It's municipalities that make those choices. We do work with them, but it is a challenge sometimes.