Transport Committee on Dec. 11th, 2018

[Matt Jeneroux]

Okay.

I'd like to share my time with Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you.

As I listen to the testimony today and consider the cost of replacing aircraft as a solution to the noise problem, I see that the consumer always ends up paying the bill.

I would like to introduce a motion on behalf of Kelly Block, who submitted the notice of motion on October 26. The motion reads: That the committee undertake a study on the impact of the federal carbon tax on the transportation industry as follows: meeting on the carbon tax’s impact on the aviation industry, one meeting on the carbon tax’s impact on the rail industry, one meeting on the carbon tax’s impact on the trucking industry, and that the committee report its findings to the House.

I believe that is important to have the facts and to do this exercise rigorously in order to have clear answers. We all agree about protecting our environment, but we have to measure the cost of doing so, and to find out what we are talking about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Godin.

Go ahead, Mr. Jeneroux.

[Matt Jeneroux]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

I assume you're speaking to the motion.

[Matt Jeneroux]

I am speaking to the motion.

To the witnesses, I apologize. Based on your comments here today, plus the comments of the minister, I think it's important that we look into this as quickly as possible. Perhaps it could be when we come back from the break. Maybe it's even during the break that we would take the time to look at this.

Often we see on the other side that we adjourn debate and this issue is unfortunately taken off the table, so we'd like to move it today, again with regard to some of the comments that were made here and some of the comments the minister has made.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead, Mr. Liepert.

[Ron Liepert, Conservative, Calgary Signal Hill, AB]

I would support the motion. If we took this time, I think that it would also give us an opportunity to expand on what has been made clear this morning.

Nav Canada, which in many ways tries to accommodate policies of the government at the time, is making decisions that are impacting constituents—certainly my constituents—for what I can see are efficiency reasons for airlines. That's all well and good, but once we get these efficiencies, then we layer a carbon tax on industry, which defeats the whole purpose and results in aircraft having to fly over communities that have a high density.

In addition to that, it has been made clear that a reduction in emissions is a primary reason that some of these flight paths are directed over high-density areas. I think that's something that could be explored as well, as we go through discussion on this particular motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead, Mr. Godin. Speak briefly, please.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to tell my colleagues that witnesses have told us this morning about the importance of renewing aircraft fleets. Reducing the noise and the environmental footprint means buying new aircraft. However, I recognize that that involves costs and repercussions for consumers. Moreover, we must be conscious of the fact that producing new aircraft implies using resources and raw materials, which is a factor in increasing the environmental footprint.

We must also remember that there are a number of aircraft graveyards, with planes that are no longer used and that have been withdrawn from service. These factors must be measured. It is important for us as parliamentarians to consider the situation as a whole so that we can make informed decisions. To do so, I suggest that we wait for answers to our questions. Our future is at stake and I feel that it is our responsibility. That is why this motion is important for us.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Mr. Nantel is next.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Gentlemen, you may not be aware, but you will probably not be surprised to learn that I am currently making a lot of effort to bring all parties together around the problem of global warming. The Conservatives too have a point of view about it, I feel. In my opinion, we cannot deny the evidence on global warming. Before we take any measures, I would like to see the Conservative Party become involved in a serious discussion on global warming.

It is self-evident that reducing our carbon footprint comes with costs. We can clearly see that a game of political obstruction is under way. I don't think that is in anyone's interest. I will conclude simply by saying that, of course, I am going to oppose this motion. However, I am making a gesture by suggesting that the proposal be presented again once your leader has agreed to participate in the leaders' summit on global warming that I propose to hold next January.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We'll go back to Mr. Godin again—briefly, please.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

In response to my colleague's remarks, I will say that we Conservatives are very sensitive to the environment. Our approach is perhaps different from that of my NDP colleague, but I believe that, before we take any initiative, we have to know what we are talking about. That is why I think it would be prudent to conduct a study and to organize meetings to determine what the real impact would be. We are just realizing that electric cars are not as environmentally friendly as scientists claimed in the past. We have to have those discussions before we make decisions that affect the future. So I invite the committee to accept this motion so that we can obtain answers to our questions and thereby do some excellent work as parliamentarians.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Godin.

The motion is rightfully before us. We all—

Go ahead, Mr. Nantel.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Since you have been kind enough to give me the floor again, let me make it clear that, of course, I am inviting Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to be part of the summit. Clearly, no one person is all black or all white.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Nantel.

You all have the motion in front of you. I don't see any further debate.

[Matt Jeneroux]

I request a recorded vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

A recorded vote is fine.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 3)

Thank you very much to the witnesses for being here. I'm sure we will hear more from each other as we complete this study.

We'll suspend for a few moments while our witnesses for motion 177 on flight schools come to the table.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Let us bring our meeting back to order, please.

Thank you all. I appreciate everybody's patience.

From the Canadian Owners and Pilots Association, we have Bernard Gervais, president and chief executive officer; from The Ninety-Nines, Inc., International Organization of Women Pilots, we have Robin Hadfield, a director on the international board of directors and governor of the east Canada section; and we have Judy Cameron, a retired Air Canada captain, director of Northern Lights Aero Foundation, as an individual.

They will of course be speaking to motion M-177, under which we are studying the challenges facing flight schools in Canada.

Ms. Hadfield, would you like to go first? You have five minutes. When I raise my hand, please make your closing remarks.

[Robin Hadfield, Director, International Board of Directors, Governor, East Canada Section, The Ninety-Nines, Inc., International Organization of Women Pilots]

Thank you.

My personal involvement as a pilot started 39 years ago and has continued in general aviation. The Hadfield family spans over 60 years in aviation, with three generations and four captains at Air Canada and with backgrounds as flying instructors, flying surveys up in the Arctic, and flying with an indigenous-owned northern Ontario commuter, Wasaya Airways, operating into the isolated reserves. It gives one a very unique perspective on my brother-in-law, who was commander on the space station.

In my background and with my family, our daily discussions centre around aviation. They've given me a very broad understanding of many of the issues facing the aviation sector.

While the motion has to do with flying schools and I do not have an in-depth background on that, within general aviation I certainly know the problems that we're hitting. What I wanted to do today was to deal with where we see problems. The Ninety-Nines is the largest and oldest organization of women pilots in the world, with over 6,000 members in pretty much every continent now.

This is not just an issue in Canada; it's an issue everywhere. I want to go through what we see as the problem and then, very quickly, what I see as the solution. We can deal with it further with questions if you want to.

The first problem is the very high cost of flight training, as you've heard in your meetings to date. Realistically, it costs $80,000 to $90,000 for a student to go from private pilot to the commercial licence with a multi-engine instrument rating. These high costs pose a special barrier, especially for students coming from households with a low income.

A solution is to make student loans that don't require collateral and co-signing available at the flying schools that are offering a diploma program, just as we have with other colleges and universities. Right now, those flying schools that do offer college programs are taken away from colleges and universities and classified as private colleges, so student loans and OSAP do not apply for them. It's creating quite a hindrance.

A precedent does exist for funding beyond loans. As you heard just the other day from, I believe, one of the pilots here—or it could have been Stephen Fuhr—back in the fifties, when you got your pilot's licence, they actually gave you a rebate once you reached a commercial licence, in order to help with those costs. A student loan forgiveness program could work the same way.

We don't have enough flying instructors. The instructors working at flight schools traditionally make a starvation wage. One of the solutions is to forgive the student loan if, for example, a graduate stays and works for two years as an instructor. Perhaps they could get a 40% rebate on what their student loan forgiveness would be, and if they stayed for four years, it would increase. In the same way that we do this for doctors, nurses and teachers that go up into the north, the same type of program could apply for flight students.

One of the other issues is that there are not enough young people considering it as a career. To me, making aviation a high school credit course would make a lot of sense. I've talked to our Ministry of Education in Ontario. As a past school board trustee, I'm aware of what's going on in the high schools, and they're really missing the mark. They are clueless when it comes to aviation. While there is a program in Ontario that has aviation and aerospace, they focus completely on items that are outside of aviation itself.

There aren't enough females. That's simple. Again, we can facilitate this by raising awareness in high schools, raising the profiles of successful females as role models, having material in packages for the guidance departments and teachers—including examples of female pilots who have successful careers—and having career days that have female professional pilots present at them. Organizations such as the Ninety-Nines already facilitate this with our current programs, working in conjunction with provincial ministers and creating new programs such as our “Let's Fly Now!” program.

Using that model in Manitoba, the Manitoba chapter of the Ninety-Nines has an airplane and works with the University of Manitoba and the St. Andrews flight school. They bought a simulator. It cost $15,000. It's free for girls to come in and use for learning procedures. Within two years, they have had over 20 women receive their pilot's licence, which is more than most of the Ontario flight schools combined in terms of female pilots.

There are not enough indigenous. We need to encourage flight schools into remote areas, such as Yellowknife, Thompson, or Senneterre. Although good flying weather is vital for a flight school, we have to go where they are; they're not coming down where we are.

We don't have enough flying schools. There are insufficient facilities for potentially new flight students. We can improve the business case for expansion because we are looking at enormous global shortages of pilots. A good business case exists to offer economic incentives to expand. Low-interest loans could help with the high capital cost for expansion in such areas as hangars and training aircraft.

There are a high number of foreign students who are taking up spaces in our flight schools. I believe the number right now is that 56% of all the students in the flying schools are from other countries. The country subsidizes the students to come here. The flight schools charge almost double the amount of tuition for them, so there's no incentive for our flight schools to not take them. The foreign students are good for our economy and they're good for the local areas where they come in. However, we have to recognize that these students leave immediately after they get their licence.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hadfield.

We'll go on to Mr. Gervais.

[Bernard Gervais, President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Owners and Pilots Association]

Thank you. Good morning.

I will quickly tell you a little about COPA, the Canadian Owners and Pilots Association, which was founded in 1952.

It's the largest aviation organization in Canada and is based in Ottawa. We have 16,000 members across the country, mostly private pilots and commercial pilots, with some airline pilots, and Commander Hadfield is our spokesperson. We're the second-largest of about 80 members of the International Council of Aircraft Owner and Pilot Associations, with representation at ICAO. Our mission is to advance, promote and preserve the Canadian freedom to fly.

We represent general aviation in the country. General aviation is pretty much everything that is not scheduled flights and military flying; it's pilot training, agricultural flying, bush-flying operations and many others. As I said, it's anything but scheduled flights and military flying. On the civil air registry right now, out of about 36,000 aircraft, over 32,000 are general aviation aircraft. Almost 90% of the aircraft in the civil air registry are general aviation aircraft.

The impact of GA on the economy is $9.3 billion. Why am I bringing this up? It's because GA plays a niche role in pilot training.

Most flight training aircraft are also constituents of the GA fleet. The first step in any pilot's career is walking through the front door of a flight training unit, and that's most likely a general aviation flight training unit. This training takes place in smaller GA-type airports and aerodromes more suited to the training environment and the type of aircraft operations that we see in these smaller GA airports all around the country.

Also, with COPA being GA, over the last five years COPA has taken more than 18,000 youngsters aged eight to 17 up for an aircraft ride in a program called “COPA For Kids”, so right there, in the last five years, we could have solved the whole pilot shortage problem with the COPA For Kids program.

What challenges do new pilots face? First they have to get into a PPL program—“PPL” being a private pilot licence—and get through that. There is no financial aid for this available anywhere in the country, except for scholarships. It's up to them, their parents or anyone else to get that money to put up front just to walk through this first step of a PPL. Anything above that is the commercial pilot licence.

Most flight training costs are not eligible for student loans unless done as part of a college program, in which case it would only be the classroom portion. Flight training units are only available in certain areas, usually the most densely populated. There's only one flight school in Yukon and none in the Northwest Territories or Nunavut.

In terms of the availability of instructors, applications from students are actually being turned down due to lack of instructors, or there's a long waiting list and they're told to come back in a year when there may be room for them in a flight training unit. Especially if the students just want to go for a private pilot licence, this recreational and private pilot licence thing is put on the back burner. The idea is to get some foreign students, but also, if you're in the airline training program, they're looking for airline pilots. The ones who will become instructors, the ones we will need, are left out.

Challenges for the flight training units include the availability of qualified instructors. With a few exceptions, most instructors need to be employed by an FTU, a flight training unit, to use their instructor rating. Other challenges include using older aircraft.

As well, another challenge faced by the flight training units is the fact that flight training units are at aerodromes that are quite old, and there are also capacity issues because of airport size, air traffic control capabilities, and the need to balance—as was presented earlier—flight training capacity with responsible aerodrome operation, especially in certain high-density areas, such as Saint-Hubert in Longueuil.

Also, for the FTUs and these airports, the only federal funding that can help these airports to develop, sustain and look at other ways is ACAP funding, but these funds are only for airports that have passenger service, and most of the GA airports do not have that.

As I said earlier, most people see aviation in Canada as airliners and very few smaller aircraft, when actually it's the other way around: 90% to 95% of all aircraft in the country are general aviation. Some people also see aviation in the country as the 26 big airports of the national airport system, but there are over 1,500 airports.

In conclusion, to ensure that the supply chain for pilots stays healthy, the front door of the general aviation world has to stay open. It means protecting community airports so that the flight schools have places to live and grow, ensuring that adequate talent and experience is retained at the instructor level. It means preserving the flying clubs and social networks associated with airports, including community, in terms of what goes on at their local airport so that they are connected and realize the important role that this asset is playing locally and in the big picture.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Gervais.

Captain Cameron, welcome.

[Judy Cameron, Air Canada Captain (retired), Director, Northern Lights Aero Foundation, As an Individual]

Thank you for this opportunity to speak today.

I was the first woman in Canada to fly for a major airline when I was hired by Air Canada in 1978. After 37 years and more than 23,000 flying hours, I retired from the airline as a Boeing 777 captain three years ago.

The biggest challenge for aviation in Canada today, and therefore flight schools, is the looming pilot shortage. You have heard that by 2025, Canada will need 7,000 to 10,000 new pilots. By 2036 a staggering 620,000 commercial pilots will be required worldwide. Part of the problem is that 50% of the population—women—are not engaged. I began my flying training 45 years ago, yet there's been very little progress in the number of women flying as airline pilots. Since the very first few were hired in 1973, the percentage of women flying for airlines globally has only increased to 5% today.

The main reason for this is the lack of role models. Countless times I've heard girls say they've never seen a female pilot before. Women in aviation need to be more visible, demonstrating their capability, credibility and passion for flying.

A 2018 study by Microsoft showed that women are more likely to do well and have a sense of belonging if they can see positive role models in a STEM career. They need to see other women performing a job before they will consider it. Research has also shown that this exposure needs to start when girls are young, as interest in technology begins at around age 11 but falls off at around age 16. A hands-on, engaging introduction to aviation is needed as part of the curriculum in elementary school. An aviation ground school course incorporating physics, math and meteorology could be offered to high school students.

As you heard from Bernard, an actual flight is even more successful to spark the passion to be a pilot. My first flight in a small airplane completely changed my career path. I had been pursuing an arts degree. My first flight was the catalyst that gave me the will and the determination to pursue an aviation career. Annual events like Girls Take Flight, an initiative started by the Ninety-Nines, provide this opportunity.

I'm a director with the Northern Lights Aero Foundation, which inspires women in all sectors of aviation and aerospace. Northern Lights has held an annual awards event for the last 10 years to highlight Canadian women who've made significant accomplishments in these fields. Past winners have included Dr. Roberta Bondar and Lieutenant-Colonel Maryse Carmichael, the first female Snowbird commander. We have a mentoring program, a speakers bureau and scholarships. In addition, we do outreach at aviation events. Our foundation has managed to attract strong support from industry. Companies are finally realizing that our activities assist in the recruitment of women. The Northern Lights Aero Foundation introduces girls and young women to positive role models and mentors who have been successful in their field.

You have heard about the high cost of flight training. At $75,000 to $100,000, it is a barrier to both sexes. A national funding program that provides such remedies as tax incentives to flight schools, student loans for the private pilot licence—which, as you heard, is not eligible for any loans right now and costs around $20,000—and loan forgiveness for pilots committing to work as flight instructors for a specified period of time could mitigate this.

The low pay for flight instructors is a significant challenge to flight schools. I just spoke to a young female instructor in Edmonton about this. She's been 10 years in the field. Instructors are paid between $25,000 and $40,000 a year. Their income is variable, as they're not on salary unless they're working for a university or a college. They're only paid when the weather is suitable for flight. This makes it difficult for schools to retain experienced instructors, who leave as soon as possible for more lucrative jobs, sometimes not even in aviation. Elevating this pay could also make it a viable permanent career choice for pilots who wish to remain at home each night instead of spending days away from their family. A lack of instructors will ultimately choke the pipeline that ensures a reliable supply of future pilots.

Women and the younger generation as a whole are also concerned about work-life balance. This dissuades some from entering flight schools. Junior pilots at an airline often have the most onerous schedules, which involve many consecutive days away from home during the time when they're most likely to be starting a family. Such innovative programs as Porter Airlines' “block sharing”, which means sharing a schedule of flying, eases the transition for women returning from maternity leave. This is a difficult time in a pilot's career; I can personally attest to this, as I have two daughters, and I returned to work in as little as two and a half months after having one of them.

In closing, I will say that one of the biggest challenges to flight schools is actually attracting women to walk in through their door. With support from government and industry to increase exposure to STEM subjects in the classroom and incentives for young people to pursue flight training and remain in the industry, I believe we can turn the tide on the impending pilot shortage. I had the most amazing job in the world, and I wholeheartedly encourage other women to pursue it as well.

Thank you.