Evidence of meeting #145 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Are you saying they don't have to apply for operations and maintenance funding?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
I'm sorry, we will get back to you, though.
Mr. Hardie is next, and then we'll go back to you.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Well, let's continue on with Mr. Doherty's question.
As I understand it, if you look at something like the gas tax fund, it isn't allocated a little bit to each community. You pool it. They then apply to get projects done from the funding available in that allocation. Is that more or less the way it works?
Director General, Regional Infrastructure Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
That is correct.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Okay.
With respect to state of good repair and operations and maintenance, that comes out of a different pool of money.
Director General, Regional Infrastructure Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
That is correct.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Explain briefly the choreography in making sure that if you build something new, the supporting funding for state of good repair, etc., will be there as the companion piece, so the facility remains useful.
Director, Capacity, Infrastructure and Accountability Division, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
Thank you for the question.
You're absolutely correct. There are, grosso modo, two different funding streams, one to build and renovate facilities and one to maintain facilities. In the construction and development of the new facilities—some were mentioned here today—there's an understanding of what the life cycle of that facility requires. There may be periods of seasonality or construction required over the life cycle of that facility. Funding flows to indigenous communities on an annual basis, in order to provide ongoing operations and management. That funding isn't application-based. It's consistent.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
What about, though, the planning and squirrelling away the money to replace that facility once it has gone past its useful life?
Director, Capacity, Infrastructure and Accountability Division, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
The funding provided, at least from a health context for operations and management, is to maintain the facility. The replacement of the facility or an expansion of the facility is the second track that Ms. Ferland was talking about. It's a different set of funds, looking at what our priorities are and how we can sustain new infrastructure.
There is a difference between the maintenance of a facility and either the construction of new facilities or renovation of those facilities.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
I want to talk a little about capacity development, because certainly in the interests of reconciliation, and so on, we want the first nations communities, to the greatest extent possible, to manage their own affairs just as any municipality would do.
Given the dynamics there, we would also want, for instance, to improve the capacity of the community through apprenticeships, skills training, and so on.
There's the management piece, which is one set of capacity-building that needs to be done, but then there are also the ripple effects of the actual activity of building and operating something in the community. Are both of those covered off through your initiatives?
Director General, Regional Infrastructure Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
I will invite my colleague Chad Westmacott to talk about the circuit rider training program.
Senior Director, Strategic Water Management Team Directorate, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
That is one example of capacity funding that the department provides to first nation communities, because we completely agree that there is that need for capacity development in first nation communities.
The circuit rider training program is one that we're quite proud of. It's an opt-in program that touches just under 600 first nation communities. It's an organization of professional trainers. They go around to every first nation community. They have their circuit that they go to, and they work with the operator of the water treatment facility and the waste-water treatment facility within the first nation communities and provide hands-on training within the first nation community.
It has been heralded by first nations, provinces and territories and others as a shining example of good capacity development in the first nation communities.
Liberal
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
This question is for Ms. Ferland or whoever wants to answer. I think this is where my colleague Mr. Hardie was going.
Is there an expectation put on at one point that the first nation is going to be self-sufficient and that those operational dollars are not going to be needed because we've built the capacity to manage and operate those facilities?
Is there a time frame placed on this so that the first nation becomes self-sufficient and does not require those dollars to manage that facility?
Director General, Regional Infrastructure Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
As mentioned previously by one of my colleagues, we're actually working very closely right now with the Assembly of First Nations and a number of third party service delivery—
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
That's not my question.
Right now, is there responsibility? Is there an expectation by the department that at some point the individual first nation will become self-sufficient and not require those funds?
Director General, Regional Infrastructure Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
Do you want to take it?
Senior Director, Strategic Water Management Team Directorate, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
Taking a look at any other municipality or province and territory—
Conservative
Senior Director, Strategic Water Management Team Directorate, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
However, it is through taxation, through their citizens who live in that area.
First nations are in a different situation and I think there are a variety of measures going forward with Indigenous Services Canada and our counterparts in INAC, working with first nations to chart a path forward.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
I want to summarize what we've heard to this point.
There's no expectation from the department and no follow-through on how the money has been spent, thus the financial responsibility, and there's no expectation or responsibility on the first nation to become self sufficient moving forward. Is that correct?
There's no onus by the department on that facility or that infrastructure, or that band or that first nation in terms of becoming self-sufficient and not requiring those dollars.
Director General, Regional Infrastructure Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
In the spirit of reconciliation and the work, nation to nation, we're seeing that first nations actually want to take responsibility.
Conservative
Todd Doherty Conservative Cariboo—Prince George, BC
Yes, 100%, but I'm not asking about the first nations. I'm asking, on behalf of the department, is there an onus from the department? Does the department require that the band have checks and balances and at one point can prove that they are self-sufficient and will not require that funding? Is there a horizon in terms of the funding for a specific project or a specific piece of infrastructure?
Director General, Regional Infrastructure Branch, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services Canada
With regard to the operations and maintenance funding and the other projects, there are checks and balances. We do work with first nations communities—