Evidence of meeting #36 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was drones.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Doug Johnson  Vice-President, Technology Policy, Consumer Technology Association
Stephen Wilcox  Airport Manager, Oshawa Executive Airport, Canadian Airports Council
Laureen Kinney  Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Commissioner Byron Boucher  Assistant Commissioner, Contract and Aboriginal Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Aaron McCrorie  Director Genral, Civil Aviation, Department of Transport
Sergeant David Domoney  Staff Sergeant, National Traffic Services , Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Mark Wuennenberg  General Flight Standards Inspector, Department of Transport

9:20 a.m.

Vice-President, Technology Policy, Consumer Technology Association

Doug Johnson

My industry colleague reminded me that at least one of our members already has a program with Transport Canada to provide information to that drone operator along with the drone in the packaging. I think a simple, straightforward, and online means of registration will facilitate registration in the greatest numbers possible. That's of interest. That was of interest for us in the U.S. Presumably it is here too. Let's make it as easy as possible. Let's make it online. Let's use technology to make it happen.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Thank you very much to both of you.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Mr. Hardie, go ahead.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for being here.

First I'd like to give notice to everybody of a motion that we will hopefully be bringing forward to the next meeting.

It reads:

That the TRAN Committee urge the Public Safety and National Security Committee, and the Justice and Human Rights Committee, to consider utilizing their respective expertise to examine any possible privacy, public safety and/or national security implications of UAVS and UAV technologies in the context of potential threats resulting from the nefarious use of this emerging and expanding technology.

We've given this to the clerk, and it will be distributed in time for us to look at it at the next meeting.

Mr. Johnson, the idea of a drone running away gives you that vision of being on the Prairies and being able to watch your dog run away for two days. Have the manufacturers done anything to mitigate the possibility that a drone will just simply take off?

9:25 a.m.

Vice-President, Technology Policy, Consumer Technology Association

Doug Johnson

As I suggested in my remarks, there are a number of hardware and software technologies out there that support safe drone operations, whether it's guards for the props, geofencing, or return-to-home functions. There are low battery indicators so that you know when you're running out of power, or there's an automatic return to home before the drone simply lands.

There actually is a pretty good list that I could share with the committee of various things that would support safe operation and prevent the runaway scenario you're talking about. I'd be happy to share it, Madam Chair, with the committee, if there is interest.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Yes, please do. The encouragement from all of us is to share information, briefing notes, etc. through the official portal so that we can take it in as evidence for our discussions and recommendations.

Thank you.

I'll turn it over now to Mr. Badawey.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to preface my comments by saying that market research indicates that global civil UAV spending could nearly double within the next decade, from $6.4 billion annually to $11.5 billion. With this, the diversification of commercial applications, operators, aerospace manufacturers, and at the same time UAV recreationalists will in fact be taking full advantage of the capabilities and the capacities of these drones.

I want to dig a bit deeper into some of the questions already asked with respect to geofencing.

What technology is available at the present time with respect to individuals, whether it be to airports or to private homeowners? What technologies and therefore abilities are available for people to either block or disarm drones in certain geographic areas?

9:25 a.m.

Vice-President, Technology Policy, Consumer Technology Association

Doug Johnson

Madam Chair, this is a little outside our purview. I know that we're not directly engaged, for example, in drone countermeasure research and development, but there is such R and D going on right now. Our U.S. Congress has been interested in this topic as well. There are private sector companies that are focused on drone countermeasures.

We as an association are not directly involved in those efforts, and to my knowledge our members are not providing those types of countermeasure technologies. They are incorporating technology into the drones with software and hardware that support safety, obviously, but drone countermeasures are a bit outside our realm at CTA.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

The reason I bring it up is twofold. One is that I think there's an obvious concern with respect to areas being breached. That concern can pose itself as so much of a concern that it may hurt the industry with respect to the availability and use of drones in certain geographical areas.

My comment is to the technology sector of drones. You may want to consider—you should consider—getting into that realm of technology. It will complement the drone industry itself. We recognize as a committee that through Transport Canada as well as through Public Safety there is going to be an issue with respect to areas being breached, whether it's for security reasons—stadiums or areas that people such as the Prime Minister, for example, may frequent at times—or for privacy issues involving people's homes and backyards, and seeing inside their homes through windows.

This is just a recommendation to you that your team may want to get to sooner rather than later.

9:25 a.m.

Vice-President, Technology Policy, Consumer Technology Association

Doug Johnson

Through you, Madam Chair, I'll say this is understood. I think the geofencing technology is very important to showing you where you should not be flying. In fact, drones may not even take off in certain areas because of the software controls of geofencing.

At the same time, our industry expects to play a role in the development of standards related to the identification of drones—not in owner registration, but in identification of a drone up in the air. We have a role to play there as well.

Thank you.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

Once again, that's fine; it's nice to find out who's flying the drone or who it belongs to, but that's after the fact. It's reactionary. I'm more interested in being proactive before the fact, so that they're not there in the first place.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Mr. Badawey.

We move on to Mr. Rayes.

November 29th, 2016 / 9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank the two witnesses for being with us today.

You talked about possibly amending our regulations to bring them into line with U.S. regulations. Can you tell us about what is happening elsewhere in the world? Are there other elements that we should consider, given what is happening elsewhere in the world?

I would like to hear from both of you on this.

You may begin, Mr. Johnson.

9:30 a.m.

Vice-President, Technology Policy, Consumer Technology Association

Doug Johnson

We're just getting involved in a more direct way with countries, regions, and jurisdictions outside the United States, Madam Chair. The policy environment is competitive, much like the industry. As you may have heard in earlier hearings, we're building a policy framework, and to date companies have found it easier to do business or to do research and development with the drones in certain countries that are more forward-thinking, or in certain regulatory environments that are quick to adapt and create that opportunity. It is competitive from our members' standpoint, but at the same time alignment, as you acknowledged, is something that's of interest to us.

I would say that at least in North America, things have narrowed for policy development and opportunities. The U.S. probably two years back was a bit behind, even in the North American market, but I think we quickly caught up with these permanent rules that are in place since last summer and with the rules that will follow for drone flights over people and other areas of expanded operations.

I can't point to one country right now that I think is really far ahead. I think policy-making continues in a lot of these countries. We know some of these countries' regulators are interested in opportunities to tell their stories before our members, so there's a competitive policy-making aspect to this.

I'd be happy to share with the committee the resources that tell us what's happening in different markets, if that's helpful to the committee. There have been reports from our U.S. government about what's happening in different markets. There was a report about six months ago, I believe, that gives some insights from Europe and Asia, in addition to North America.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

It would be interesting to have them.

You have the floor, Mr. Wilcox.

9:30 a.m.

Airport Manager, Oshawa Executive Airport, Canadian Airports Council

Stephen Wilcox

We've come a long way since the Wright brothers' airplane here in the U.S., and we have the International Civil Aviation Authority, which is tasked with creating regulations on an international basis. Its head office is in Montreal, and that's because Canada was one of the initial signatories to this association. It sets the standards for everything we do on a global basis for aviation, and that would be the place to look for standards on an international basis. I do not sit on the ICAO committee, but I would be happy to bring some information back to this committee on exactly what is happening at ICAO on an international basis for the establishment of regulations in this field.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Mr. Wilcox, you mentioned a rule that provides that drones cannot be operated within a 9-kilometre radius of an airport. Is that correct?

9:30 a.m.

Airport Manager, Oshawa Executive Airport, Canadian Airports Council

Stephen Wilcox

Currently that is the policy that Transport Canada is applying to the operation of drones, but there are no drones—that is, zero drones—within nine kilometres of an airport or an aerodrome. You will recognize that an aerodrome can be a farmer with his airplane in the field or Toronto Pearson Airport. It is wherever aircraft operate.

9:30 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

That's perfect.

Do you have technologies or tools to monitor and make sure there are no drones in that environment? If there is a technology, I imagine that major international airports do that monitoring well. On the other hand, I do not think that small and medium-sized municipalities that have regional airports have access to those protective technologies, especially since the aircraft that use those airports do not usually have an electronic system and are flown by sight. Is that correct?

9:30 a.m.

Airport Manager, Oshawa Executive Airport, Canadian Airports Council

Stephen Wilcox

Today in Canada we have a national radar system that supports most of the busier airspace in Canada. Anywhere that airspace exists, the drones could be equipped with what's called transponder technology. It's what the aircraft have, and it's why the aircraft are visible on the radar. If you equipped drones with transponders, at least in that busy corridor, you would see them in close proximity. They would show up on the radar screens immediately in the control towers.

Outside of the radar airspace and at low altitudes in proximity to the radar airspace, you wouldn't see them, but you would certainly capture the majority that exist in the busy airspace. As I mentioned earlier, new technology that has been introduced is able to detect drones within a kilometre of an aerodrome. It's basically a ground-based station that has a variety of sensing tools that are looking for drones. A kilometre is a very short distance when it comes to aircraft, but certainly it's the start of being able to monitor them.

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

If you detect a drone, how would you respond if it entered that zone? Would it be possible to bring it down? Are there electronic fences? Perhaps a bazooka could be fired at it to prevent it from reaching its destination? I do not really know what the solution might be.

9:35 a.m.

Some hon. members

Oh, oh!

9:35 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

I imagine there must be some way to bring it down.

9:35 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Give very short answers, please.

9:35 a.m.

Airport Manager, Oshawa Executive Airport, Canadian Airports Council

Stephen Wilcox

The first step in the equation is to notify the aircraft and the pilots that there is in fact a drone there. We do that every day for birds and other obstacles that appear at airports. We have a NOTAM process, a notice to airmen that can be immediately disseminated to the aircraft. If the airport has a control tower, the control tower becomes aware of it, and they manage the airplanes around it. Outside of controlled airspace, again, the NOTAM process is going to be the first step.

Then, as I said, I think that the goal would be to reduce the number of incidents through registration and education. If we're going to see an increase in use, we want to see a reduction in unplanned drone intrusions.