Evidence of meeting #39 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was waterways.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Emma Lui  Water Campaigner, Council of Canadians
Adrienne Davidson  Fulbright Visiting Researcher, Center for Canadian Studies at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, As an Individual
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Andrew Bartholomew Chaplin

8:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)) Liberal Judy Sgro

I'm calling to order meeting number 39 of the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities. I welcome everybody this morning.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are continuing our study of the Navigation Protection Act. We have several witnesses with us today.

Emma Lui, water campaigner, from the Council of Canadians, welcome back. You didn't get your full time the last time, so we're trying to make sure that you have your opportunity this morning.

We also have with us Adrienne Davidson, Fulbright visiting researcher at the Center for Canadian Studies at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.

Thanks very much to both of you for being with us today.

Ms. Lui, we'll go to you for very brief opening remarks. If you could, please comment on what you didn't get to finish the other day so that you have time to receive questions from the committee members.

Ms. Lui.

8:45 a.m.

Emma Lui Water Campaigner, Council of Canadians

Thank you.

Good morning, everyone. Thanks to the standing committee for inviting back the Council of Canadians. I appreciate the opportunity to continue raising the concerns that I started to raise the other day.

I guess I'll just flag that we had raised concerns about the lakes and rivers that remain unprotected in many of the communities that our 60 chapters are in. We also have many supporters who have expressed concerns about the projects that are threatening navigable waterways in their communities.

In particular, I want to raise concerns about the approvals that the Trudeau government recently put forward for the Trans Mountain pipeline and Line 3 pipeline. Justin Trudeau campaigned on restoring and strengthening many of the freshwater and [Technical difficulty—Editor] but the approvals of these pipelines and of the Site C dam really raise some concerns about the government's commitment to protecting waterways in Canada. Many of our chapters and supporters have expressed concerns about these projects threatening navigable waterways in their communities.

As you likely know, the Trans Mountain pipeline crosses and threatens roughly 1,300 waterways. Oil spills such as the one that happened on the Kalamazoo River impacted navigation on parts of the river, and a nearby lake was closed for two to three years because of the spill, so we are really raising concerns about the potential of spills from the Trans Mountain pipeline and Line 3, as well as the NRG pipeline. These projects were approved with weakened legislation put forward by the former Harper government, and they seriously threaten the local waterways that communities rely on for boating, fishing, recreation, and local tourism.

Local economies rely on healthy and navigable waterways. We urge the standing committee to make recommendations to the federal government to restore and enhance protections for every lake and every river. In particular, we're asking that a new clause be developed so that potential spills or discharges of harmful substances are assessed for their impact on navigable waterways. Again, we're underscoring the importance of respecting and implementing the human right to water as well as the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

I'll leave it there. Thank you very much. We really appreciate the time.

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much, Ms. Lui.

Ms. Davidson.

8:50 a.m.

Adrienne Davidson Fulbright Visiting Researcher, Center for Canadian Studies at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

Thank you to the committee for inviting me to speak today.

I'm speaking to you today with respect to a research project that I undertook in 2014 with colleagues at McGill University and at the University of Washington. This research investigated the changes to the Navigable Waters Protection Act, and that paper was published in 2015 in the Canadian Journal of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences.

The changes to the NWPA received considerable public and political attention, particularly as they pertained to the potential environmental impacts. The NWPA itself never had an environmental mandate or role, though its relationship to environmental protection was constructed through the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act of 1992, which used the NWPA as a triggering mechanism.

In 2012, the changes to the CEAA removed that triggering mechanism, and the CEAA adopted the designated projects list. Meanwhile, the changes to the Navigable Waters Protection Act removed comprehensive federal oversight of waterway navigability through the creation of its schedule A list of waters.

What has this meant for oversight?

According to the CEAA online registry, there were 2,400 environmental assessment projects conducted between 2003 and 2012 that were triggered by the Navigable Waters Protection Act. Fifty-eight per cent of these projects were conducted on waterways that no longer receive protection under the Navigation Protection Act. Projects occurring on ocean basins, which remain on schedule A, account for approximately 30% of those environmental assessment projects, while only 11.1% of projects occurred on lakes and rivers that today are included on schedule A.

With respect to oversight, I think it’s fair to say that we’ve seen a pretty dramatic decrease in federal project oversight on lakes and rivers in Canada. However, it is important to note that reducing the NPA oversight does not necessarily mean that there is no federal oversight on a project. Projects requiring environmental assessment, if they appear on the designated projects list, may still occur on non-schedule A waterways. Federal oversight might also be achieved through other legislation, such as the Fisheries Act. However, at this time, I don't have, and I believe the public does not have, a clear sense of what the gaps are under the new regulatory framework. The concurrent changes to the Fisheries Act in 2012 might have had a similar effect in reducing federal oversight, or these parallel pieces of legislation may continue to work together to provide comparable levels. At this point, though, I think it's pretty unclear what that looks like.

The Navigation Protection Act defines navigation with respect to recreation and commercial uses. How we think about navigation and what types of navigation are important had a major impact on the way that the schedule A list of lakes and rivers was defined.

The best we can tell from the information we received through our ATIP requests is that the schedule A list of lakes and rivers was compiled through a fairly narrowly defined process. That process created a composite score for each waterway’s navigation pressure. Those scores were based on service levels as determined by the Canadian Hydrographic Service's freight movement statistics, on past work that indicated navigation, and on survey scores based on regional managers' knowledge regarding regionally important navigable waters.

Under these metrics, recreational and commercial activities are heightened over and above the natural or environmental importance of certain waterways or their relationship to subsistence activities. Thus, moving forward, I think it's critically important to consider how we define or think about navigation.

Finally, this question about how the schedule A list came about speaks to my final point: we need to think about how to build opportunities for more consultation or transparency into this review process.

The origin of schedule A was of particular interest to our research team, and subsequently, we submitted two ATIP requests.

The first request asked to look at the qualitative assessment of lakes and rivers under review, while our second request asked for the larger quantitative assessment, which marked the first step in the process. Throughout our research efforts, we weren't actually able to get a full picture of the process as the quantitative assessment was held back due to cabinet confidence. Therefore, we've had to speculate a little about some of the metrics that went into this process.

Overall, transparency and clarity appear to be two core issues that face this review and the review of the new environmental and regulatory framework as a whole. I think there's a failure in understanding the gaps that exist now within the new legislative framework, and that uncertainty makes it quite difficult to reach an informed consensus about the public comfort or the public expectations for the environmental regulatory regime.

Thank you.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much. We appreciate your comments. On for questioning, we have Ms. Block.

December 8th, 2016 / 8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. If my questions don't take up the full time, I will share my time with Mr. Berthold.

Thank you very much for joining us again this morning. I appreciate the difference you note between the Navigation Protection Act and CEAA, and the link between them in terms of the trigger that used to exist.

I want to talk a bit about the paper that you wrote entitled “Reductions in federal oversight of aquatic systems in Canada: implications of the new Navigation Protection Act”. It had the following three objectives, as I see it. The first thing was to see how long the average environmental assessment took between 2003 and 2012. Second was the percentage of NWPA-triggered environmental assessments that occurred on water bodies listed in the schedule. Finally there was the impact the changes to the NPA will have on environmental oversight. I noted that your paper didn't discuss whether the actual navigation of waterways had been affected.

In your research were you able to find a single lake or river on which navigation was no longer possible as a result of the changes? You're here testifying before the transportation committee, on the Navigation Protection Act, and yet your paper didn't discuss that aspect. I'm just wondering if you could speak to that, please.

8:55 a.m.

Fulbright Visiting Researcher, Center for Canadian Studies at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, As an Individual

Adrienne Davidson

Of course. The research project had some limitations, obviously. Key among them was that we were looking backwards on projects that had already happened rather than forward on new data or new projects that were coming on board. Certainly, the data we had limited our ability to speculate forward, to think about whether there were any new projects that had come on board that no longer had the navigation piece or would no longer be covered by NPA. If we were to do this project today, we would have two extra years of data that we could actually start to use to see what the implications of NPA specifically have been. However, when we were doing this project, the changes had only just been put in place and implementation had not yet occurred. I can't actually at this point speak to any case in which navigation has been impeded since NPA has been implemented. However, we can say, based on the data we have, that, of the environmental assessments or the projects that were triggered under NWPA, 58% would not be triggered under NPA.

As I said, it may be the case that some of these projects would still see oversight in some capacity or another through either the Environmental Assessment Act or the Fisheries Act or some other piece of legislation, but I think it's also important for us to potentially distinguish between navigation as one interest or one role for government to play versus environmental assessments, which may be looking at a different set of implications.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Absolutely, which is why we have the two acts, right? The NPA focuses on navigation and CEAA focuses on environmental assessments.

What I've heard, then, is that your research didn't go beyond 2012 and the changes. In the past four years you've not done any research on the implications of the changes made in 2012 for the waterways here in Canada.

9 a.m.

Fulbright Visiting Researcher, Center for Canadian Studies at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, As an Individual

Adrienne Davidson

That's correct, mostly because we haven't been able to.... I mean, the implementation took some time, and I believe only since 2014 have the changes to CEAA come into full effect. In terms of accessing new data, it's only in about the last year and a half or two years that we've been able to actually research and look at those impacts over the long term.

From our existing research, however, it appears to be the case that 58% of the projects previously requiring federal review through the Navigable Waters Protection Act would not be considered, under even navigation purposes, through the NPA.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK

Thank you.

That's a great segue into my next question. How, in your view, are provincial and federal environmental assessments different? Are two always necessary? With regard to the changes that were made, I believe part of the reasoning behind them was to reduce the duplication of environmental assessments. Could you comment on how they're different? As well, are two always necessary?

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

I will have to ask you for a short answer.

9 a.m.

Fulbright Visiting Researcher, Center for Canadian Studies at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, As an Individual

Adrienne Davidson

That's a weighted question, and it's not one I'm particularly well equipped to answer. Quite frankly, I'm not as familiar with the provincial regulatory framework and how it intersects with the federal framework.

That said, I think this question of federal oversight for navigation purposes and where it falls relative to either provincial environmental regulation or federal environmental regulation is an important question for this committee to consider. I'm not necessarily saying that the triggering mechanism should be reintegrated into a future regulatory framework, but it's possible that by downloading or requiring the provinces to do their environmental assessments, the role of the federal government in reviewing navigation principles or navigation of waterways is being lost in that mix.

So it's a question of potentially figuring out how to—

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

I'm sorry, Ms. Davidson, I have to interrupt. I did allow the time to go over, because it was an important question that we wanted to get your response to.

Mr. Badawey.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to preface my comments by saying how much I appreciate you folks taking the time to be part of this. This study is being undertaken as a way to allow the public to comment on legislation that's of this importance, so I want to thank you folks for being here.

With that, I will ask my first question. This act is about access and navigation and/or impediments to navigation. I'm wondering if you would offer your thoughts on the adequacy of the 2012 changes when it comes to artificial or manmade obstructions to navigation.

9:05 a.m.

Fulbright Visiting Researcher, Center for Canadian Studies at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, As an Individual

Adrienne Davidson

Is that directed to me?

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

Either of you can jump in.

9:05 a.m.

Fulbright Visiting Researcher, Center for Canadian Studies at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, As an Individual

Adrienne Davidson

Why don't you take this, Emma?

9:05 a.m.

Water Campaigner, Council of Canadians

Emma Lui

Sure. Thank you.

It's hard to assess how a project impacts navigation when a lot of the lakes and rivers aren't being included in the act. As you know, the schedule focuses on a very small number of lakes and rivers. I just don't think that assessment is happening, because so many of the lakes and rivers are not under the purview of the act.

Related to the previous question and some of the points that have been raised, I think it's important to flag that with regard to the navigable waters protection program, one of their original goals was environmental protection. I'll read from the previous website, and this is a quote: “The Navigable Waters Protection Program...is responsible for the protection of the public right to navigation and the protection of the environment through the administration of the Navigable Waters Protection Act.” That language has been scaled back since the changes in 2012, but it does say that the program still considers the safety of navigation, access to waterways, recreational and traditional use of navigable waters, and environmental effects when reviewing a project for approval.

I just want to highlight that. People are talking about how this act doesn't have anything to do with environmental protection, but on the website it clearly did state that, and it still does. So if that's not the case, the language on that website needs to be changed, because that's the public's understanding right now.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

Speaking of responsibility, the previous government and the Conservative MPs on this committee have repeatedly stated that the smaller NPA means less red tape and greater efficiency for those navigating our waterways. In your opening statements, both of you indicated otherwise. Could you please explain why you think the reduced scope of the act would negatively impact accessibility in some areas and how we can fix those problems?

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Ms. Davidson or Ms. Lui.

9:05 a.m.

Fulbright Visiting Researcher, Center for Canadian Studies at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, As an Individual

Adrienne Davidson

I think there are two pieces that are intersecting here, that the committee does need to sort of...sorry, could you repeat the question? I'm a little confused.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

Sure. The previous government and our sitting MPs here from the Conservatives have repeatedly stated that the smaller NPA means less red tape and greater efficiencies for those navigating our waterways. Earlier, both of you indicated otherwise.

Can you please explain why you think the reduced scope of the act would negatively impact the environment? I'm talking about accessibility in some areas and conditions related to some of the comments you already made with regard to respecting the environment and what the actual act is supposed to attach itself to.

9:05 a.m.

Fulbright Visiting Researcher, Center for Canadian Studies at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, As an Individual

Adrienne Davidson

With respect to reducing red tape, this was one of the pieces we were quite interested in looking at in our research projects. It was part of the rationale utilized in the dialogue around the discussions of the NPA changes. I think it is important to note that the number of NWPA-triggered EAs accounts for only approximately 5.8% of all of the federal EAs in that 10-year period. So in terms of the overall impact on environmental assessments, it's a relatively small number of all environmental assessments occurring in Canada.

As for the length of time the environmental assessments took, 53% of environmental assessments triggered by NWPA were completed within six months, and 73% were completed within a year.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON

Thank you.

9:05 a.m.

Fulbright Visiting Researcher, Center for Canadian Studies at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, As an Individual

Adrienne Davidson

So these environmental assessments did not take very long.