Evidence of meeting #5 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rail.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
How about my broader question? Do you believe that the rail industry, because of the nature of their cargo now, should be subject to an environmental impact assessment?
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
In the sense that all modes of transportation should be looked at closely because of the environmental footprint that we have and the contribution to greenhouse gases in general, yes, no question.
Linda Duncan NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
That's very encouraging. I look forward to pursuing that with you.
Liberal
Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
I have the privilege of representing the riding that I grew up in. When I was growing up, a student was killed at a railway crossing.
I see that the Transportation Safety Board has identified rail crossings as among the rail issues that pose the greatest risk to Canadians.
Sir, my question for you is, what plans, if any, do you have to address this and to reduce accidents at railway crossings?
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
Yes, railway crossings have accounted for almost half of our fatalities, so railway crossings are important. We have put out new railway crossing regulations with respect to that and they address specifically the issue of safety.
However, if a location where there is a railway crossing.... Federally, there are about 14,000 of them, and there are 9,000 private ones. There's a huge number of them. That doesn't include every provincial one and other ones. There is a huge number of railway crossings, and each of them of course has to be safe, and there are regulations with respect to how the safety measures need to be put in place.
If a municipality is concerned about a railway crossing, those who own the road and those who own the railway are each responsible for working together to ensure the railway crossing is safe. If they have a disagreement about it, they can call Transport Canada, and we'll come and look at it. We'll look at whether it complies with the regulations. There is even, dare I say it, a rail crossing improvement program in the federal government that provides some funding, up to 50%, to improve railway crossing safety in case the judgment is that it's not safe enough.
There is considerable attention in Transport Canada with respect to the issue of grade crossings. There are a lot of them in the country, and some of them have caused fatalities—you're quite right about it—more than people think.
Liberal
Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
The particular one I'm talking about never used to have the barriers. It does now, so that would fall within the province and the municipality, yes?
Okay, thank you.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My first question is for clarification.
Earlier, the comment was made by Ms. Raitt, ironically, with respect to the budget being cut by $400 million. I do note, Mr. Minister, that you did inherit a very difficult financial situation from the previous government. However, cuts worth $400 million were made. When did that actually begin?
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
In fact, over the last four years the previous government, the Conservatives, cut $473 million from Transport Canada, and $171 million of that was for CATSA. That is the organization, as you know, that checks security at the airports. That is something that we as a new government have inherited, and it has presented us with certain challenges. I want to make the point that, despite that, I will do absolutely everything in my ministry to make sure that safety and security remain the top priorities, because we need to convince Canadians that their system is secure and safe, and we need to take the measures to do it.
It is something we have to live with from the previous government, and it did have an impact.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Thank you.
Moving over to another issue, it is a border community in my part of the world, and probably in many parts of the world that we all live in, throughout the country. You most recently visited Washington, D.C., and I am sure from that began a positive dialogue with our U.S. partners.
Having said that, what steps, Mr. Minister, are being taken to expedite the transportation of both people and goods between Canada and the United States?
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
It's a good question. If we are talking about people, then we are talking about the borders or flying across, and to a much lesser extent about ships.
A lot of people fly to the United States on a daily basis, back and forth, so pre-clearance, which is something that was started under the previous government in discussions with the United States, is an ongoing issue. Pre-clearance, as you know, allows airports.... There are eight airports in Canada that have pre-clearance, but there are a couple more that have asked for it. Billy Bishop, and in Quebec City, Jean Lesage, have asked for pre-clearance. This opens up all sorts of possibilities for them and I think ultimately makes for a smoother flow of passenger traffic. Those are things we are discussing with the United States.
I was very pleasantly surprised at the degree of harmonization that we have with the Department of Transportation in the United States with respect to the transportation of goods. I think that in some cases we still have some work to do to harmonize regulations because if a truck or a train crosses and comes into a different set of rules on each side, then that presents difficulties. We want things to be as smooth and fluid as possible, but I think we have achieved some pretty remarkable things over the.... I'll give the previous government credit as well. It is in our mutual interest to have that. There are still some things that we can improve with respect to that.
We are always concerned about the border becoming thicker. It would be nice if we could keep the cargo moving. As you know, over $2 billion cross between Canada and the United States on a daily basis, mostly by train or truck. As they said on TV last night, Canada is the largest destination for 35 states in the United States. We are their main importer. The more efficient we can make that, the better. That is why I met not only with the U.S. Secretary of Transportation, but also with Homeland Security, because they are responsible for the border services and for issues like pre-clearance. We are trying to make it as smooth and fluid as possible whilst addressing Americans' number one concern, security. I think we are making progress.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
I'm sorry, your time is up.
If we are going to start another round, I need to bring to your attention that we started 15 minutes late due to the vote. Is it the desire of the committee to continue, to make up the 15 minutes and do another round? I am noting that we have allocated half an hour or so to do some committee business once the minister has left and we have dealt with our main estimates.
What is the desire of the committee? Do you want to continue for an extra 15 minutes and make up the time where we started late? It means we'll start another round.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
If that is the desire of the committee, then that is what we'll do.
Mr. Hardie, go ahead.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Did Transport Canada have any lapsed funding returned to the government in the last number of years?
Liberal
André Lapointe Assistant Deputy Minister and Chief Financial Officer, Corporate Services, Department of Transport
Yes, we have had some lapses over the last few years on average.
Last year we did not and this year we are forecasting no lapses.
It's important to distinguish a lapse from a carry forward. We have space for carry forward both on the operational and the capital budget, but we have had some years where we've carried forward and we had money beyond the carry forward cap and so that money lapses.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
It's just an observation, and we saw it in Veterans Affairs and in a few other areas where a significant amount of lapsed funding went forward primarily because other cutbacks cut back staff and you need staff, of course, to implement programs and obviously use the allocations that you're given.
I have some sympathy for the railways when it comes to the issue of crossings.
My colleague Dianne and I both share an interest in the Burlington Northern Santa Fe's route along the shoreline in South Surrey—White Rock, because there are quite a number of unauthorized level crossings along that way. That is an ongoing headache for the railroads because you never know if during the summer holidays the kids cut a path through the bush and the next thing you know they're crossing the road to get to the beach.
There's been a lot of discussion and in fact a great deal of good work along the corridor to the Roberts Bank terminal to grade separate roads.
Is there much science or study done on grade separations for the railroads themselves?
I mention that specifically because one of the proposals that we see coming out of South Surrey—White Rock is for a tunnel to allow the train to have a very short route, much shorter than it's taking now, and obviously mitigate some of the issues that you would if it was at grade.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
On the issue of grade separation, you're quite right that one of the things that in fact has helped the Asia-Pacific gateway to de-bottleneck.... People previously had to wait half an hour while a very long train went by, or the train had to slow down and let rush hour traffic go through. Grade crossings did represent a significant bottleneck in the Asia-Pacific gateway, particularly in the greater Vancouver area. Some significant projects were put through to provide grade separation.
Grade separation can be important in de-bottlenecking so that nobody is stopped and everything moves smoothly, but there's another aspect of it as well that recently came to light, as you know, with the tragic event that occurred in south Ottawa where a VIA train struck a bus and there were, as I recall, six fatalities. The TSB examined it. One of the TSB recommendations to us at Transport Canada would be to look at perhaps putting together a set of guidelines that would dictate from a safety point of view when it would be appropriate to have grade separation from a safety point of view. That is something we just started recently to look at.
Of course, grade separation implies sometimes considerable costs, but we are looking at it from a safety point of view in the sense of putting out guidelines that could be used by municipalities and others.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Very quickly, on the issue of fatigue, I see there was a note here that one of the railways was cited for allowing engineers to work past regular hours. The airline industry keeps an eye on it. The trucking industry is a question, but that's a mixed bag of jurisdictions across the country.
One of the things that hasn't been studied as far as I know is the long-term effects on the people who are forced to work weird hours, that later in life they have almost the impact of PTSD.
Is there any thought to looking at that? We could be buying ourselves a lot of trouble in the years to come just because of the work rules that exist today.
Liberal
Marc Garneau Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC
My deputy minister tells me we're looking at it, so I'll defer to him.
Deputy Minister, Transport, Infrastructure and Communities, Department of Transport
The ADM can jump in on this, but we are looking at the issue of fatigue. As you said, it is a really complex phenomenon. It's not just the number of hours, but it also depends on people, depends on the full cycle. More and more studies are being done on this. There have been demands from the air industry, for example, the pilots.
This is actually something that is one of our top priorities, because as you said, there's a mix of accidents and also economic impact. Those accidents cost a lot of money in the end, so it's better to have a system in place that ensures that fatigue does not become an issue from a safety perspective.