Evidence of meeting #53 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transport.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Captain Hogan, thank you for sharing about time zones. How do time zones enter into the number of hours you're flying? How do you calculate that?
12:45 p.m.
Capt Matthew Hogan
Are you talking about on a daily or a monthly basis?
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
With respect to long flights. Let's say you enter a different time zone. How do you calculate the number of hours you're flying?
12:45 p.m.
Capt Matthew Hogan
Currently, there is no differentiation in the Canadian Aviation Regulations. You can fly 14 hours with two pilots, and you can extend that up to 17 hours. This is way, way beyond science.
There is some hope on the horizon. The draft regulations do propose time-of-day sensitivity. We just simply say that does not go far enough. We're not asking for anything more than what the NASA scientists recommend. The science is clear: the maximum flight time at night for overseas flights is eight and a half hours of flight time, period. The United States has eight hours; Europe has nine and a half hours. We want science—
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC
Okay.
I asked a question before with respect to fatigue, and the difference of fatigue when it comes to long flights and when it comes to landing and takeoffs. You explained to me, roughly, the timing of fatigue. Because we say that one size does not fit all, what type of fatigue exists for all three types of activities: long flights, takeoffs, and landings? Could all three of you give me short answers so the committee can have that information?
12:50 p.m.
Capt Matthew Hogan
Certainly.
I already spoke to the frequency of takeoffs and landings. They're definitely the most taxing portions of the flight. The length of the flight is a consideration: the longer you go, obviously, your time on task is going to be longer.
The other consideration is the circadian rhythm. On top of that, the reason we're focusing on the time between 5 p.m. and midnight is that if you take off with an unaugmented crew at that time, you're going to be landing overseas in your window of circadian low, without proper augmentation on board. Flights less than eight and a half hours, sure, but when you're looking at flights over eight and a half hours, the science is very clear: NASA science says eight and a half hours.
12:50 p.m.
Health and Safety Committee Chairperson, Airline Division, Canadian Union of Public Employees
I think his answer was very comprehensive, yes.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I would like to thank the witnesses for being with us today.
My first questions are for you, Mr. Hogan.
I assume you are an aircraft pilot by training.
12:50 p.m.
Capt Matthew Hogan
Yes, sir. I have an airline transport pilot licence. I am qualified on the Airbus 320 as a captain.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC
In terms of safety, we are taking a lot about pilots sleeping.
That said, if there was an aviation safety inquiry, what other elements directly associated with the work of the pilots and involving risks to aviation safety should be studied as a matter of priority?
12:50 p.m.
Capt Matthew Hogan
Certainly.
First of all, I'd like to commend the minister for a proactive approach to drone safety. That was a safe and responsible move to make.
I'd also like to commend the minister on the “fit to fly” workshop that's been put together for this June. We'll be attending that. Again, that is addressing pilot health, which is very important.
On top of that, I think it's important to look at all aspects of the industry, not only pilots. I want to make sure that the maintenance personnel, the workers who work around the aircraft, and the flight attendants on board.... The flight attendants on board are also flying these very long-haul flights, and as technology progresses, they'll be exposed to some very serious health risks.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC
Okay, but I'd like to take advantage of your expertise to know, from the pilots' perspective, what we should be looking at to improve aviation safety. I'm not downplaying the other aspects. Several questions were asked, and I certainly learned a lot, including the 1/40 and 1/50 ratios, the impact of which I didn't really understand. Mr. Bray-Stone's response, which was excellent, managed to raise our awareness about this situation.
Having said that, I would like to know, from the point of view of the pilots, which elements we should be addressing as a matter of priority.
12:50 p.m.
Capt Matthew Hogan
I'll speak to that 1:50 rule right off the hop, since you brought it up. The 1:50 rule brings up some very serious issues in the cabin in regard to safety and security. There are smaller aircraft, and if you have a 1:50 rule, if the flight attendant is up front and let's say the pilot goes back because of the new rules with regard to having two on the flight deck, you now have no one in that cabin. Even up to a 100-passenger aircraft, let's say the flight attendant comes up front to allow a restroom break for the pilot. You now have one person in the cabin for up to 100 people. These are serious concerns.
We have other concerns in regard to lasers. We have huge concerns in regard to drones, weather, runway safety. Runway end safety areas have been on the TSB watch-list for over 20 years. From talking with the Transport Canada inspectors, there are hundreds of NPAs to Canadian Aviation Regulations that have had all sorts of due diligence conducted and that just simply haven't been put into effect.
We can talk about runways, we can talk about navigation systems, and we can talk about runway lighting and approach lighting. In the nineties we moved to a system of individual airports taking care of this. We have Nav Canada, which is separate. We have the airports, which are separate. We have a regulator that maybe is absent, in some cases, and we need to make sure we have proper oversight for all of those systems to fit together properly.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC
In the case of pilots, we're talking about sleep, which directly affects the individuals who control the aircraft. I repeat that I in no way want to minimize other aspects of safety. There have been cases in which the pilot was under the influence of alcohol. This has happened recently, and the case has been widely publicized. There will soon be the issue of marijuana legalization. However, since this substance can remain in the body for a fairly long time, the fact that a person has previously consumed it can cause a problem.
I was wondering, since no one is perfect, if the airport security system could ensure that such unfortunate situations don't happen again. You'll no doubt say that the analogy isn't clear, but a representative of a trucking company questioned the safety of his business and wondered what oversight he could use to ensure that transport was done safely, taking into account the full impact the incidents may have.
Does the current system ensure that pilots who take responsibility for the aircraft, passengers and equipment do so according to the rules?
12:55 p.m.
Capt Matthew Hogan
Certainly, what we're talking about here is obviously a sensational issue in the news, a very acute risk in the whole thing and a one-off. What we're talking about is.... Of course no one approves of anyone operating impaired, and impairment relates to a whole number of issues, not just the ones you discussed there. Obviously, you can talk about alcohol, you can talk about drugs, you can talk about distractions, and you can talk about fatigue. Those are all cited by the NTSB as forms of impairment.
Again, we're very encouraged by the Minister's response in the pilot “fit to fly” workshop. We think that's a very proactive approach. At Air Canada, and I know at other carriers, we have a very extensive employee assistance program, which is very—again—proactive in mitigating these risks before they happen, so you don't have an instance like the one you discussed earlier.
On top of that, though, if we're going to talk about impairment, if we're going to talk about the elephant in the room, we're talking about fatigue. This is a pervasive risk that affects the entire industry and is completely unaddressed.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Our time is up.
Thank you to the witnesses very much for your information. We may invite you to come back at another time.
To the members, if you have any additional witnesses who you want to submit for the extra two meetings we have added on to our study, please give their names to the clerk by April 12.
Then, there's a question regarding next Thursday's meeting. Because we are on Friday hours next Thursday, in order to change the meeting from 12 p.m. to 2 p.m. instead of 11 a.m. to 1 p.m., I need unanimous consent of the committee. Is there unanimous consent to change our hours to do the main estimates with both ministers next Thursday from 12 p.m. until 2 p.m.?
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
We don't have unanimous consent.
All right, we don't have unanimous consent, so we will not have a meeting next Thursday.
Thank you very much. The meeting is adjourned.
