Transport Committee on May 2nd, 2017

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Adamus, maybe you can comment on that.

[Capt Dan Adamus]

Flight simulators allow you to do procedures that you couldn't ordinarily do in an aircraft, for the obvious reasons, so they are very valuable tools. There are very sophisticated simulators these days. We do a complete check-out on a new aircraft. In the actual aircraft you have passengers behind you, so that's how good they are.

That's for pilots who have been working in the industry for some time. Initially, you need to learn respect for the aircraft. You actually have to scare yourself a little bit. That's why you need to train in the real aircraft first and then gradually transition over to the simulators.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Fair enough.

I have to ask the question about what was mentioned earlier and, again, the contrast between Mr. McConnell and Mr. Richard. It was confusing in respect to the comment made about entering an aircraft and sometimes it can be a devastating expectation versus aircraft safety improving and continuing to improve.

We're expecting that the minister or the ministry is going to move forward within the next year, I would assume, with improvements to air safety, aviation safety, hence, the reason we're going through this exercise.

What are some of the things, Mr. Richard, that we're improving on? Then I'm going to go to Mr. McConnell on some of the things that we can improve more on.

[Jean-Marie Richard]

What I understood of what the people said at the two previous meetings is that inspectors were spending less time doing auditing. If they're doing that, they're not following the procedure, because the procedure is in reality what we used to do, plus making sure that the system works. If they're not doing that, then they're not following the procedure.

My contention was that with the implementation of SMS Transport Canada would require more people than with the old system and also that the people should be more attuned, better trained, and more vigilant during the surveillance process.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

That's in reference to the surveillance procedure, the quality assurance, SMS—

[Jean-Marie Richard]

Exactly.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

—the assessment investments that are being made.

Okay.

Mr. McConnell.

[Capt Greg McConnell]

Simply put, respecting the time that I know is short, train our people, supply us with the mandatory training, get us back into the cockpits and get us out of the office.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to share my time with Mr. Sikand.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

There are 30 seconds left.

[Gagan Sikand, Liberal, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Okay.

I have questions for Dan.

I do see a lot of red on this and I'm also looking at emerging countries in the aerospace industry, like India, Taiwan, China, and Korea. Will this affect our competitiveness if we don't have safety standards that achieve better competitiveness as well?

[Capt Dan Adamus]

Our focus throughout this whole exercise on flight and duty times was on safety. Competitiveness is obviously something that's important, because if we don't have an airline to fly for, we don't have a job obviously.

I think with this world standard that's out there already that will just put Canada in line with the rest of the world. It levels the playing field.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Aubin, go ahead for six minutes.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Chair, echoing others' comments seems to have become the way to do things. I would still like to clarify, for the record, that during the same hour, on May 9, we will hear from not only Minister Garneau, but also the Minister of Infrastructure and Communities and officials. If you are telling me that I will have time to ask all my questions in one minute, I really don't see how I will manage. It seems to me that we are stretching the limits a bit.

Gentlemen, thank you for being with us. The last thing you could be accused of this morning is using doublespeak. So I thank you for shedding light on this issue, which has been a concern for us for months.

I always think about the well-known saying that we can always do more with less. Over the past two years, the budget has not contained a single line on aviation safety. The funding has decreased by $7 million. In addition, there have been no reinvestments and no announcements. That is why I have a hard time believing that this will not have an impact on aviation safety.

Mr. McConnell, do you have an idea of how many safety management system inspections your members carried out last year?

[Capt Greg McConnell]

Yes, I can answer that by virtue of an oversight document, the director general of civil aviation went across the country, and arguably they're meeting 50% to 65% of their targets. They have probably done hundreds of SMS-type inspections, whether that be a full assessment, PVI, or PI.

I think the number they referenced was 10,000 and I also heard 120,000 in this committee. That is simply just not possible. In this country we have 800 airlines basically. How can that be so? I just don't understand.

The numbers provided to the minister are different from what the directors general are briefing in their oversight tours

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Does such a large discrepancy between the figures provided by Transport Canada and those provided by you this morning stem from a lack of human resources or a lack of training for those resources?

[Capt Greg McConnell]

I would say both. It's both a lack of training and a lack of resources. Mind you, remember I've already testified that through a new internal process bulletin, the department is going to increase its activity by doing a smaller, shorter version of an inspection, called a process inspection.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

My understanding is that a self-regulatory system is supposed to prevent accidents and incidents. At least that is the intended objective. We were told that more than 5,000 incidents and accidents took place in 2016. Why do you think there were so many? Is the system working or not?

[Capt Greg McConnell]

That would be a reactionary type of inspection to an event, incident, or accident. Generally, I believe Transport Canada should be in the business of preventative measures and not reactionary-type measures. This is what's causing Transport Canada to not meet its targets on an annual basis, being at 50% or 65%, depending on how you choose to look at the numbers.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I want to come back to my previous question. Regarding the number of inspections you talked to us about, were those reactive inspections, proactive inspections or a combination of both?

[Capt Greg McConnell]

Absolutely reactive. The majority of inspections being conducted are reactive to incidents, accidents, or events that are occurring.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

So after the accident. How are the findings of those inspections applied to ensure that the incidents don't reoccur?

[Capt Greg McConnell]

I don't think it would be offside for me to comment that the Transportation Safety Board has 52 recommendations that haven't been looked at in 20 years. That would be a very good place to start, because it is their job to investigate the accident and come up with recommendations to enhance safety.

[Robert Aubin, NDP, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I would like to hear briefly from all of you, from a personal or professional perspective, on issues that seem very simple to me.

Is our air transportation safe at this time?

Are you in favour of Judge Moshansky's request to create a public inquiry into aviation safety?

Do you think it would be entirely justified for Canada to be audited by the ICAO? The last audit was conducted in 2005, if my information is correct.

[Capt Greg McConnell]

Do we have a safe system? I can tell you that flying in Canada has never been more risky, due to the lack of primary oversight and the compliance to the regulations as they exist.

With respect to Justice Virgil Moshansky's recommendation of a full-scale inquiry, I believe in 1989 he wrote that an aviation authority should check its vital signs every 10 years. We are now 28 years past that point. With respect to my recommendation or the recommendation that ICAO come in and measure Transport Canada's compliance to Annex 19, I would fully support that.