Transport Committee on May 4th, 2017

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I hear you.

Mr. Mahon and Mr. Maybee, do you have any comments on that?

[Steve Maybee]

The comment I would have is similar to Mr. Gow's comment, in that the management systems are a tool. That's simply what they are. They're a tool to help us manage the processes in the safety programs. But they're heavily reliant on people, and that gets into culture. Safety culture does not change overnight. Safety culture is something that you have to develop and work on and embed into your organization, and when that culture gets to a point, then the programs all work in synergy together. It takes time to do that. I can't think of any one instance where there was a significant gap between what the program was saying and what people were doing. We try to close those gaps. I can't think of anything offhand, but it's heavily reliant on people.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Talk to me, Mr. Mahon and Mr. Maybee, about this issue of runway overruns. Obviously there are some very expensive remedies, i.e., lengthening runways involved here. What's going on there? Is this an issue all of a sudden, or has it been creeping into greater prominence over time?

[Glenn Mahon]

Certainly when it comes to runway overruns, one of the things that have been proposed is the implementation of runway-end safety areas. From an airport operator's perspective, I guess, we look at that as a somewhat reactive response to a safety concern. The implementation or installation of runway-end safety areas at airports will certainly diminish the risk of passengers being injured and it will also minimize the damage to an aircraft in the event of an overrun, but it will not prevent aircraft overruns.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

But are they happening more often?

[Glenn Mahon]

I can't speak to whether or not they are happening more often. I guess just by the nature of the fact that more aircraft are flying and the fact there certainly is more coverage oft hose types of things, it's probably more noticeable.

But from an airport perspective, one thing I would say is that if we look at the Transportation Safety Board watch list, we feel there is a direct correlation between two items: unstable approaches and aircraft overruns. If an aircraft approaches a runway too high and too fast, the end result, typically, can be an aircraft or a runway overrun. In those types of situations, what we'd like to see is not only a complete focus on the reasons, but also a look at the situation of unstable approaches and what that means and the root causes. Addressing those issues in and of themselves can minimize the potential for runway overruns.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

We heard, in fact, in earlier testimony that unstable approaches might have to do with an over-reliance on auto-pilots and the hand-off, if you like, between the automated system and hands-on flying. Is that your observation?

[Glenn Mahon]

Again, from an airport operator's perspective, I can't speak to the flight operations part of it, but I would like to say again that there is more than runway-end safety areas that need to be looked at in resolving those issues.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Gow, do you have a comment on that? Again, it's the whole issue of there maybe being overreliance on auto-pilots, and maybe a lack of experience in actual hands-on flying in certain conditions, particularly the dicey parts of takeoffs and landings.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Luc Berthold]

I ask that you keep your answer very brief, Mr. Gow.

[Harry Gow]

That would be the particular concern, I think. We can go back to reports on historic crack-downs such as the Moshansky report. I think that was on Dryden, where a plane went into the bush. But currently I think the issue is more of the potential of trouble, and it may relate in part to the lack of flying time and experience and boots on the ground inspections by Transport Canada inspectors. It's a bit of an indirect link to overruns—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Luc Berthold]

Mr. Gow, I must unfortunately cut you off. We are out of time.

Thank you very much.

Mr. Badawey could continue on the topic, if he wants, during his six minutes.

Did you want to pursue this further, Mr. Badawey? The floor is yours for six minutes.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will invite the witness to finish his answer.

I'll let you finish what you were answering before you were cut off.

[Harry Gow]

Thank you very much.

This is a question of potential trouble, as has been stated. Air traffic is increasing. The number of landings and takeoffs is increasing. The number of overshoots can go up just arithmetically without there being an increased danger. But I think the real concern now these days is the attempt to economize within Transport Canada in its oversight practices and the mechanical aspects and so on. That is where I think we have a problem. That attempt to economize could cost us dearly in the long term. Right now, we're lucky. We've just been lucky.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

That's great to know.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I have some comment on some of the—for lack of a better word—cutbacks that we've experienced throughout the past decade. According to the Canadian Federal Pilots Association, the civil aviation flying program of Transport Canada has been cut back starting in 2008-09 from over $8 million. Although it was $8 million in that timeframe, the data shows it being as low as $3.5 million of late in 2016-17, while flying hours have dropped from 10,000 to just under 4,000 in the same time period.

As well, if I may, the number of aircraft used in training has dropped from 42 to 14 in that same time period. The department suffered several rounds of full-time equivalent job cuts during the former government with respect to over 100 positions between 2009-10 and 2014-15.

Can I get some comment on that from one of the witnesses?

[Harry Gow]

Perhaps the other gentlemen could comment.

[Glenn Mahon]

From the flight operations perspective, it's really not our area of expertise. It's more on the ground, the airport environment and the infrastructure on the ground, that is really the area for which we're probably best capable of responding.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Let's get directly to that, then.

In its watch-list, the Transportation Safety Board notes that many Canadian airports do not yet meet the Transport Canada guidelines of 150 metres, and most large airports do not meet the International Civil Aviation Organization recommended practice of 300 metres.

With that, what is the current compliance rate for Canadian airports in regard to the standards and guidelines for runway end safety areas. That was the first question. The second question is what prevents Canadian airports from meeting the standards and guidelines for runway end safety areas. In your opinion, should Transport Canada establish runway end safety area regulations to that end? I'd like to hear some more thought or explanation on that.

[Glenn Mahon]

Right now, over the last couple of years, there's certainly been significant consultation between the air operators and stakeholders and Transport Canada on the implementation on runway end safety areas. There was an extensive risk assessment done by Transport Canada at the request of airport operators and certainly other aviation stakeholders. I guess that's where the process is right now. It's gone to a recommendation from Transport Canada to the CARAC process.

I guess our understanding right now is that we'll be hearing within the next six months or so as to what the outcome will be from a regulatory perspective for implementing RESAs at airports.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chairman, I'm going to split my time with Mr. Iacono.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for Mr. Maybee. Landings and takeoffs are critical moments. Runway incursions pose significant risks, according to the Transportation Safety Board. What are airports doing to prevent runway incursions, and how can the federal government help them?

[Steve Maybee]

Those periods of time in the flight are the riskiest from an aviation perspective. From a regulator's perspective, it's making sure that the regulations get through quickly and don't take so much time. We started working on runway end safety areas a number of years ago after they appeared on the watch-list, and we're still waiting for the regulation. Some airports have already undertaken to start putting in 150-metre RESAs. Some airports have actually moved to 300 metres.

Airports are starting to do that. But they do that at their own risk because they don't know what the regulations are going to finally say. So they're moving those things through quickly.

I talked about other things like the TP312 document. That's a regulatory document to which airports build and maintain their infrastructure. Twenty-two years between editions is far too long. Airports started looking to ICAO annex 14 standards for input and direction on what to do at their airports. We can't allow those processes that take so long, because they are so critical to what we do every day.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

I have a question for all three witnesses.

What, in your opinion, is the most significant issue in terms of aviation safety in Canada?

Please keep your answers short.

[Harry Gow]

Mr. Iacono, I would say it is investment, be it investment in training and professional practice for pilots, in inspections, in the updating of navigation and landing systems or in secondary airports. Major airports, like those in Ottawa and Toronto, don't seem to be having any problems.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you.

We will give the other two witnesses an opportunity to answer the question.

Mr. Maybee, go ahead.