Evidence of meeting #63 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was projects.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Madam Chair, I'd like to give all of my time to Mr. Bratina please.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Well, thank you.
I'm really pleased with the discussion. I understand Mr. Barlow's question about rural versus urban, but any house that was built after 1880 and before 1978 probably has a lead service line in it, whether it's out in the country or not. The national regulation, the standard changed in 1978 to a large extent, and then further past that, the regulations with regard to lead solder and so on changed, so pretty much from 1990 and beyond you're in the safe zone.
I want to bring the conversation back to the importance of this, because as we're hearing and as Mr. Barlow said, and it was a fair comment, we never heard about this. This is an 84-page study from the City of Hamilton with regard to orthophosphate. It's a complete survey of all of the issues that we're talking about here. They're not commonly known, even by operators of water systems in various communities across Canada. I did a survey of them.
Then there's Flint, Michigan. Flint, Michigan sued the EPA, a federal regulatory authority, for $700 million, because they showed no leadership in dealing with the problem that suddenly occurred in Flint, Michigan, because they changed the water source.
One of the reasons I brought this private member's motion forward is to ask Health Canada and Infrastructure Canada to come to a new understanding together that is not based on the old mandate that while it's on private property it has nothing to do with us.
Madam Chair, I'll get to my question, but it needs a preamble.
The most vulnerable people on this issue are families with young children living in old houses. It's very typical. I live in a neighbourhood that's well over 100 years old. Young families are moving in. I ask them, “Do you know whether you have a lead pipe or not? No? Well, the city has a program.” Sure enough, they cut the thing out. These people may not have the financial ability, even on discovering that, to do anything about it unless there's a loan program, as an example.
The question I'm going to put to you again has been asked twice already. Would you consider looking at the parameters of infrastructure investment that might allow municipalities to access infrastructure money to get 500 service lines out per year, as they're doing in Hamilton? In Toronto they extrapolated a much bigger number, but the City of Toronto said, “No, we don't want to do that. It's a fiasco.”
I think it behooves us, as a federal government. I'm asking you, would you consider the possibility that municipalities could use some of the money that's available to modernize infrastructure, for infrastructure that's on private property? The money is not given away. It's just loaned, and it circulates. Is that a fair question? Would you be able to bring that back to other people and ask them that question?
Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
I'll start by providing you with the answer you don't want to hear. Homeowners are responsible for the portion of the connections that are located on their properties.
Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Policy, Office of Infrastructure of Canada
We will consider the outcomes of your study. Obviously, we will consider any advice you will provide.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
We get back to the seriousness of the problem.
As Mr. Barlow suggested, Who knew this was a problem? We have these studies over 30 or 40 years. There was a famous one in Cincinnati that tracked children from very poor areas. They found out in the Ohio penal system that something like half or more of the inmates had high lead exceedance in their bodies.
The most amazing graph of all is the the graph that shows a parallel between diminishing criminal behaviour and the removal of lead from gasoline. People are still wondering why—and you can look at any statistic you would like—crime rates are going down and have been going down steadily over many decades. Guess what? It's a parallel.
We know now, from brain imaging of infants, that lead in a very young, developing child will affect the prefrontal lobe of their brain, which affects the humanistic aspects of behaviour. I would like to hear once again from Health Canada whether—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
You'll have to close off, Mr. Bratina, if you want to give them some time to answer. You have 15 seconds left.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Would you agree that it's more serious than we thought some time ago, based on new research?
Director, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health
Yes, I think from the Department of Health's perspective, the new research that's come about in the early to mid-2000s suggests more of a human health effect than was previously known in the 1990s and previous to that, so we would agree with that.
Conservative
Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Welcome to our witnesses.
I am very pleased that you are here this morning.
This is my first visit to this committee, and what an interesting topic we have here. I feel very uninformed, though.
There are a couple of things. I guess sometimes when you look at something fresh, you see things that maybe stand out. One of the things that blew me away is that we're talking about this problem with lead pipes, and we don't know how big or how small the problem is. There's no inventory of the issue. I wonder, just as a novice, maybe we should step back and say that if we're going to address this problem, we should know what it is and how bad it is. That's just a comment I'd like to make.
The other thing is budgeting. There's really no idea about the budgeting. I guess it depends on how much the province or the municipalities ask for. It goes up and then you, at the federal level, will decide what programs are worthy or not. I think if you had the inventory, then you could look after the budgeting, and we could attack this issue. What I'm saying is that there's no strategic plan here.
As Mr. Bratina said, there seems to be a very serious issue. I have infant grandkids. We need to eradicate this problem. Time is of the essence. We should be, first of all, making an inventory of all the problems, and then deciding how much of a budget we need to address them and develop a strategic plan to look after them.
Having said that, one thing comes to my mind. I represent the riding of Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, which borders the St. Lawrence River. I have a municipality of 45,000 people in Cornwall, who access the water from the St. Lawrence River. It's filtered, of course, and distributed to them. Actually, they distribute it to parts of the rural area as well. The St. Lawrence River has a high incidence of lead in it. Now, does the filtration system remove the lead from the water that they take in? The lead is so bad that some of the fish can't be eaten. When you take the water in and you put it through the filtration plant, is the product that comes out the other end lead-free? Health Canada might be able to answer this. Does anyone know that, or could you answer that?
Manager, Water Quality Program Division, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health
The focus we've had in establishing our guideline is the main source of lead, which is through the infrastructure, so the point was really more looking at it from making sure that the water is non-corrosive.
Conservative
Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON
Actually, with all due respect, the St. Lawrence River Institute says not to eat the fish because there's too much lead in it, so obviously the water in the St. Lawrence River has too much lead in it.
Manager, Water Quality Program Division, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health
The issues with fish are different because fish are in the water 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It's often the environmental guidelines end up being lower than the health effects guidelines. At the same time, if you have a conventional water treatment plant, it will remove some of the lead, yes.
Conservative
Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON
It will remove the lead because it is an up-to-date test system, so that's good.
Manager, Water Quality Program Division, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health
Yes.
Conservative
Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON
On health standards, for example, if I live in a certain community and there's lead in the pipes that service my home, even if I correct the situation on my property, if there's a lead pipe carrying it down the street, does somebody have requirements that it has to be removed, or does something have to be at a certain level where that is not acceptable?
Director, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health
Yes, that would be the municipality's responsibility. Our understanding is the majority of the lead exposure is via the lead service lines that are on private properties, as well as the lead exposure from private-residence property. As I mentioned at the outset, we've been working very closely with provinces and territories about lead in drinking water. By and large, the lead pipes in the lead service lines you're speaking of—
Conservative
Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON
Just so I understand correctly you said that most of the lead is coming from the pipes that are going into the homes, not necessarily the main arteries.
Director, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health
That's correct.
Manager, Water Quality Program Division, Water and Air Quality Bureau, Healthy Environments and Consumer Safety Branch, Department of Health
The main service lines are a much bigger diameter so the water is less in contact with the pipe itself.
Conservative
Guy Lauzon Conservative Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON
Okay. It's mostly the laterals to the houses.
