Transport Committee on Feb. 5th, 2018

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Yes, I was a little bit surprised, and I'm encouraging more take-up with the funding available. Perhaps we need to work a little harder to make more municipalities and locations aware of this program.

[Sheila Malcolmson, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I really appreciate your department being able to answer at such short notice the question that our committee asked. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Fraser, for six minutes.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Thank you so much for being with us today, Minister and staff. I'd like to say as well that I appreciate the multipartisan support for cleaning up abandoned and wrecked vessels from Canadian coastlines.

I'd like to build upon some of the questioning from my colleagues, the MPs for South Shore—St. Margarets and Nanaimo—Ladysmith. I very much appreciate that this legislation is designed with a preventative approach, whether it's prohibiting abandonment, requiring insurance, or putting in costs as a potential deterrent, but I'll follow up on Ms. Jordan's comments about vessels that exist within our waters today.

One of the issues that I see and have seen in my own riding is the scenario in which a vessel owner is unable or unwilling to move the vessel and doesn't have the capacity to finance its removal. Is there anything in the legislation we're dealing with presently that would prevent the federal government from taking enforcement action in removing the vessel from our shores in the event that the vessel owner doesn't have the capacity to cover the costs?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I can tell you, first of all, that we hope that in the future this is not going to happen, and I would remind you that if the vessel is above a certain size, the owner will need to have insurance specifically to deal with the issue of taking care of an abandoned vessel and/or a wreck. However, ultimately, if there is a situation where, for whatever reason, the owner is not taking up their responsibility, even though we will take action against that person, yes, the government can take action at that point specifically. It will be on a risk-based assessment basis, specifically if it represents a navigation or environmental hazard, but we hope that we're not going to get to that situation with this new legislation.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Of course.

Staying on the topic of the problems that certain communities are facing today, you said in response to Ms. Malcolmson's question that you want to encourage more uptake of some of the funds that are available to help move these vessels from our shores.

Not to get too parochial here, but I have the community of Marie Joseph in my backyard, along the eastern shore. It's gorgeous. The wild islands along the eastern shore are subject to a tourism expansion project that the federal government is partnering with. At the same time, it has a 1,300- or 1,400-tonne former Canadian Coast Guard vessel, the CCGS Tupper, bolted into the side of the provincial highway and sitting in federal waters. It's an eyesore for the community.

How can I as a local representative bring to the attention of the municipality and the community at large information about the programs? What advice would you give them for partnering with us to move this vessel out of their community?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

The current program, the abandoned boats program is, I believe, probably tailored more towards smaller vessels. You mentioned 1,300 or 1,400 tonnes. You also mentioned this is an ex-federal government ship, so if the town where this is located wants to communicate with the federal government, we can certainly look at that and get back to them on that specific case. We're now talking about a larger size, one of the many that are in the country at the moment, and we would have to get back and look at that specific case.

This might be similar to the kinds of things we did with the Kathryn Spirit and the Farley Mowat and others that are a little bit outside of the range of the abandoned boats program and the small craft harbours program as well.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Excellent.

This is perhaps my final question, depending on the time.

I assume there will be some sort of a prioritization to deal with the most urgent vessel removals first, based on environmental risk, public safety risks, or potentially the economic benefits to regions such as the community I mentioned, based on their tourism industry, for example.

Could you lay out for us how the prioritization will be designed to ensure that we're tackling the most serious problems first?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

The plan is to create an inventory of all of the abandoned vessels. We'll be looking to co-operate with municipalities and provinces across the country so that we can identify where all of them are.

We will then assess them in terms of the risk they represent. That risk can be environmental, because they still contain fuels and oils that could eventually seep out, as we all know, or they might represent a navigation hazard because they stick up from the bottom of the water or whatever, so the real depth of the water where they're located would represent a navigation hazard, or it could be social, if they're an eyesore that's really having a profound effect on tourism. Those are the kinds of factors we will examine in coming up with our risk matrix. Obviously, those at the top will be the ones we will focus on before we focus on the rest.

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Mr. Fraser.

We go now to Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, and to your helpers here.

The British Columbia government published a paper called “Dealing with Problem Vessels and Structures”, and one of the things they mentioned in there is that the definition of a vessel, at least to them, could be problematic to us. They don't consider, for instance, a ship that's had the motors taken out and been converted to a floating restaurant or an oil tank barge used as an office next to a pier or a forestry barge camp to be vessels.

Will we have any difficulties with definitions or with defining what, in fact, needs to be cleaned up?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

We have definitions, and I could read them to you if you would like—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

You could just aim us at the section; that would be fine.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

I don't know if that's section 2 of my document, but we'll aim you at the definition, because obviously we need to do that.

There are exceptions. I know that out in British Columbia, for example, there are some ships that I might even have served in that are in the bottom of the water. They've had all of their equipment removed, but they're used as sites for scuba diving. There are special exceptions.

You mentioned floating restaurants and those kinds of situations, but I believe that as far as definitions are concerned, our legislation will ensure that we cover all of the relevant vessels that we're concerned about.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I know that probably parrots and eye patches are out of style, but there are some real pirates out there in the international scene, shady characters who move from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, spreading all manner of misery. How do we manage the people who simply don't play by the rules anywhere in the world?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

It depends on what they're doing. If they're breaking the law, then we do pursue them. We have laws, and they may not necessarily be pertinent in the case of this legislation. That's why we have the Coast Guard. I don't know if the Coast Guard would like to chime in on that, but with respect to illegal behaviour out at sea—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

With respect to this topic, they slide in under cover of darkness and leave something with no way of tracing it back to them. It's not like an automobile with vehicle identification numbers etched in various places—or is it?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

If they come into our waters under cover of darkness, just abandon a vessel that they have not registered in any way, and have managed to slip through without being detected, then we could have an issue with respect to that abandoned vessel. Our intention is that for all law-abiding shipping coming into Canadian waters, these measures will address the requirement for them to have insurance, clear ownership, and identification.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Officer Lick, would you comment?

[Gregory Lick, Director General, Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

To add to the minister's points, if an illegal person comes in and abandons their vessel, if we can deal with it through the new act, through monetary penalties and so on, that's one aspect. The other aspect is that we will take action no matter what in dealing with the risks posed by the vessel. The environmental risks, the tourism risk, the economic risk—that side of it will be taken care of no matter what.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I noticed that mineral resource vessels on location are excluded because they're governed by other legislative regimes, the Canada Oil and Gas Operations Act and the National Energy Board Act. In dealing with these vessels, is there a risk that we have too many agencies operating without complementary provisions in place?

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

We're trying to make it coherent. The examples you cited apply when an oil rig is in its location and doing actual drilling in the recovery of oil. It's covered by different legislation. However, if that oil rig is being dragged out from St. John's harbour on its way to its location, then it comes under this legislation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Go ahead, Mr. Chong.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing.

Does this bill apply to Canada's internal and territorial waters as well as the waters in our exclusive economic zone?