Transport Committee on April 18th, 2016

[Orest Dachniwsky]

I would agree. It's handled at the operational level in terms of where decisions are made about where to put particular trains and looking into all the circumstances regarding where they're coming from, where there's capacity to put the trains, etc.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

So the companies make those decisions. That's something we might want to take a look at. I just have to share that I'm sorry but the issues raised by my village for 50 years have never been addressed.

I have a question for Ms. Bennett. Thank you very much for your testimony today. I'm wondering if both you and the chiefs could speak to this issue about the first responders. We had the fire chiefs from across the country on the Hill a few weeks ago, and I noticed that one of their requests is a continuation of funding for the training of the first responders, and I'm wondering if either of you would like to speak to that, and also the problems that the first responders run into when they have to be the first on the spot.

We heard from CN and CP. They said they're starting to carry some of the equipment themselves on the trains, and I'm just wondering if the short line trains are also doing that.

[Mary-Jane Bennett]

Before I begin, I just want to address what's happening in your community and the shunting operations going on there, and also address the question raised by Mr. Hardie regarding rail relocation and the cost.

I want the committee to understand very clearly that under the Railway Relocation and Crossing Act, the cost is not fully borne by the federal government, nor municipalities, nor whomever they can patch together to pay for this. In effect, if you are giving an efficiency gain to the railway, you are entitled to recapture that gain over a 20-year period. So if, through a relocated line, we are giving BNSF enhanced access to Fraser Surrey Docks, that transit time and the benefit that it grants is to be recaptured over a 20-year period.

So it's a huge saving, and as well there are other matters in relocation that, of all the policy statements I've read behind acts, as a lawyer, I put the Railway Relocation and Crossing Act as one of the most important tools available to communities and provinces and the federal government that I've seen.

[Linda Duncan, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Now, we'll go to a fire chief.

[Len Garis]

In reference to the City of Surrey, I'll speak to that directly. First to the question, the City of Surrey fire services are amply trained and equipped to deal with dangerous goods emergencies, whatever the transportation means, and I'm pleased to advise you that the city has been very supportive of its fire services.

I can't, however, speak about the rest of the province. Part of the challenge is that there are a lot of small communities through which rail lines travel, and first responders are often volunteers. As a matter of fact, 80% of Canadian fire services are staffed by volunteer firefighters, which makes access and training difficult. Nonetheless, I can say that the fire services in those pockets, for the most part, are well trained and amply equipped to act as first responder initiatives, so rest assured. Also, I can tell you that our interaction with the railway companies through a consortium called TRANSCAER—which I believe BNSF is part of—has been very supportive in training and preparing us for those types of emergencies.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Badawey, you have six minutes.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

I have just a few questions for BNSF with respect to what's already been asked, if I can dig a bit deeper into that.

You mentioned the stopped train protocol and questions related to that. I have to admit that I'm not fully aware of the area, but I do have an idea with respect to redundancy, as it pertains to protocols, especially with respect to emergency access routes.

So my first question is this. Is there no redundancy with respect to the infrastructure built in to the area, and then therefore, to an emergency preparedness plan?

[Len Garis]

Certainly there is. There are options for that type of a blockage. We have access to air support, both through the RCMP and through the BC Ambulance Service for incremental emergencies, where we could actually bypass that.

Those types of strategies and implementation—hence, the stopped train protocol—actually include the RCMP and BC Ambulance Service. Those types of emergencies can be addressed by other means. Fire safety, the other aspect of it, would likely require the City of Vancouver to bring in some of its fire boats. The delays would be incredibly unsuitable for that type of event. So our hands are somewhat tied.

The other option would be to put a fire station on the other side of the rail line. That would not likely be feasible in terms of its costs and the ratio of the citizens it needs to serve. Once again we're reflective of the stopped train protocol, which provides the request for the carrier to break the train or separate the train if it's stopped. In the interim, the issue for us is that the railway would just simply follow the protocol when it presented itself. I believe that would be a great opportunity, in the interim, in order to see that work.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

This question is for the BNSF with respect to the life cycle and the cost of the replacement of the assets, namely, the track itself. Would there not be an opportunity, especially within a 20-year period, to recapture the gain, as mentioned by Ms. Bennett earlier? Would there not be an opportunity in the future, albeit not overnight, to take a lot of the capital reserves that you're putting in place to replace your track and then redirect those investments to a new location? You'd therefore not only use the same dollars that you otherwise would have to use to replace existing track over its life cycle but also create a new location with those dollars, as well as the possibility of a gain with respect to the more efficient system and as well a more updated system.

[Orest Dachniwsky]

The issue is very complex. First of all, I think there's an assumption being made that there will be more efficiency in a track that's moved. We have not seen specific drawings and details of how that would work, so it's not entirely clear that we would have those efficiencies.

Second, as either Johan or I mentioned, we have expended $37 million in the last three years on these tracks, so we already have expended a great deal. Those costs would come in on the opposite side of the equation in terms of needing to be recouped. Without having the exact figures and exact engineering drawings, those may net out to nothing. We would have to look at the detailed information in order to be able to respond to that. My internal guess is that it would probably net out to zero.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

That was with existing investments into the existing line.

[Orest Dachniwsky]

Yes.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

To go back to my earlier question, with respect to that same line, you'll have basically a life cycle attached to it. There will be a need to eventually replace that line, albeit in pieces. Would there be opportunity to do that and, instead of replacing it in the location it currently exists, to actually look at a new location using those same dollars?

[Orest Dachniwsky]

Again, I'm not an engineering expert, but it's not a one-for-one, where I pick up a piece of rail here and put it there. When you resurface a rail, you tamp the ballast and things of that nature. It's not as simple as saying I can take my track and instead of putting my money in place A, put it at place B, and the same thing happens.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Actually it is, because besides the land purchases, you have ballast that you're replacing, you're ripping up the ties, you're replacing the ties, you're ripping up the track, you're replacing the track, you're wobbling it, and then you're moving forward with the operation.

So yes, in fact it is that easy, besides the land acquisition.

[Orest Dachniwsky]

Well, except you're having to operate someplace. At some point, the two lines overlap and cross each other, and so of necessity you're going to have waste, so to speak, where you're not going to recoup the money you've spent.

I'm not disagreeing with you in terms of the possibility of it. What I'm saying is that it requires some study and evaluation to determine if those assumptions are correct. I just don't know the answer whether they are or are not.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

That is something they might consider as well, whether the original line can act as a redundant line.

[Orest Dachniwsky]

That's true, yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We have eight minutes left and I'm going to suggest four minutes for Mr. Hardie and four minutes for Ms. Watts for the conclusion of this round.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

We recognize that railways are built and that things then happen around them, that people move in, etc. That happens with a lot of infrastructure, of course, but I am concerned about the corridor that you're following along the shoreline. Residents there have sent me any number of pictures of rock falls, mudslides, and trees down, and there's a general perception that with climate change and a lot of other factors, the foreshore is becoming less and less stable.

Can you tell me how many mudslides you have had in the last five years, say, that have actually held you up? Do you keep records of that?

[Orest Dachniwsky]

Yes, we do keep records. I don't happen to have that information.

Do you guys in Seattle have that?

[Johan Hellman]

No, we don't have that. We can try to find that information and then report back.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Fair enough.

Len, do you have any information on the number of climate-related incidents that may have impacted operations along there?

While he's looking that up, has BNSF or its predecessor, the Great Northern Railway—Rocky, the great northern goat, I remember him well from the TV commercials from way back—ever seriously investigated relocating that line? Given all of the stuff that you've heard from the communities there and the concerns they've raised, have you ever really sat down and tried to develop a business case for moving the line?

[Orest Dachniwsky]

I'm not privy to that information. I don't know if our folks in Seattle are, but we are willing to listen to what has been said.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

It was telling that earlier you weren't able to give me a ball park figure as to what it would cost. That suggests to me that it actually hasn't been done.